When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[EaraGrace]

I think my question here is then what was it exactly the ancients did that warranted their extinction? They had something to strive for, the betterment of their planet. For all we know after that occurred they could have moved on to another planet to better that one as well. Some had doubts and existential problems but as we see via the side quests, they kind of resolve their vows and take the time to remember why they do this and express joy with it.

And that’s a beautiful goal, one of many in the universe at the time the Ancients lived. As Lyth points out and as Meteion says so clearly, they’re is little separating them from the number of civilizations that end up singing the song of oblivion. The only connection, the only thing uniting all these different perspectives was one thing.





Venat recognized the problem.

1. Inevitably all civilizations would face suffering in some form or another. Whether born from war, disease, or simply apathy, there was no escape.
2. Believing one could escape suffering would require either being willfully blind to reality, or worse, unprepared for the harsh truth.
3. Despair and hopelessness was the end result of being unprepared or unwilling to accept this truth, as one would either not be able to withstand the pain of existence, or give up entirely once they realize the futility of it all.
4. Meteion would not just be impossible to resist should one give in, she would be, in the eyes of those she kills, the one in the right. Death and oblivion would be preferred to life.

So the question to ask is not did the Ancients deserve to be destroyed, but would they be capable of finding meaning knowing their end was assured, knowing their paradise would end and knowing that they would suffer, that they had only been “spared it’s biting sting for a time.”

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Which we know, many of them understand their end is assured, so much so they actually see life in death what with reincarnation. They acknowledge that many a time. They still found meaning in doing what they could, and when they were done they would retire, they would be fine with dying, and would have someone else take up their mantle. Regarding what Lyth says about how do we know some other misfortune may come along, yes of course but that’s my point. We can argue that for any society anywhere, that something *could* happen in the future. It doesn’t matter when or where it is. The problem here is when we bring up how they fought against said misfortune. They did what most anyone else would do, and something that even the scions themselves speak about against the final trial. They will fight against fate no matter the cost. Both Alphinaud and Alisaie state this. This is what the ancients did. They fought against their fate of being destroyed like the countless other civilizations that did crumble. The problem here is when Venat takes it upon herself to then play god, and decide no, they don’t get a chance to try and move on. and possibly combat Meteion all the way. But this just loops back to the original topic. When will we stop fighting? We won’t stop striving to better the world and it’s no different from the ancients so i’m just curious exactly what the message with the ancients is. What exactly did they do wrong to warrant all of this. We see with the other civilizations(outside of the dragons i suppose) that each one had some kind of major flaw that led to their downfall and they couldn’t recover.

[EaraGrace]

Which we know, many of them understand their end is assured, so much so they actually see life in death what with reincarnation. They acknowledge that many a time. They still found meaning in doing what they could, and when they were done they would retire, they would be fine with dying, and would have someone else take up their mantle.

No, they didn’t do so under the belief that their end was assured. It was their choice to do so, one made after they felt they fulfilled their purpose. But that’s not an assured end, that’s not recognizing the certainty of their mortality. To say your end is assured is to accept that it will happen regardless of if you desire it, that it is ultimately out of your control whether you will live forever or die young.

And that’s something they vehemently rejected.

Temperamental Spirit: The Final Days taught us to fear a death forced upon us.
The injustice of duties and dreams left unfulfilled. The grief of unexpected partings...
Swift as darkness, cold as ash.
Such tragedy, yet no catharsis! Such truth, yet no consolation...

Regarding what Lyth says about how do we know some other misfortune may come along, yes of course but that’s my point. We can argue that for any society anywhere, that something *could* happen in the future.

It doesn’t matter when or where it is. The problem here is when we bring up how they fought against said misfortune. They did what most anyone else would do, and something that even the scions themselves speak about against the final trial. They will fight against fate no matter the cost. Both Alphinaud and Alisaie state this. This is what the ancients did. They fought against their fate of being destroyed like the countless other civilizations that did crumble. The problem here is when Venat takes it upon herself to then play god, and decide no, they don’t get a chance to try and move on. and possibly combat Meteion all the way.

No, the problem is they did not want to move on, they wanted to move back. They wanted to forget it ever happened, to relinquish any lingering memories of the event and see the world returned to exactly as it was. Not just that Etheirys was livable again, not just that the apocalypse be halted, but that everything went back to the way it was, “To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.” And they took permanent steps to ensure that would happen, the third sacrifice being that.

But this just loops back to the original topic. When will we stop fighting? We won’t stop striving to better the world and it’s no different from the ancients so i’m just curious exactly what the message with the ancients is. What exactly did they do wrong to warrant all of this. We see with the other civilizations(outside of the dragons i suppose) that each one had some kind of major flaw that led to their downfall and they couldn’t recover.

It’s again not about deserving destruction, none of the civilizations deserved it. They did their best, but in choosing to base their future on “paradise,” they blinded themselves to the reality that so long as they lived they would face suffering.

WoL and Amon (and Zenos) would suggest that people's souls do have an intrinsic character that transcends incarnations. Even with Eden it wasn't so much that Gaia rejected her self-as-Loghrif, rather she didn't want to have her current person and the connections she'd formed destroyed. Of course, Mitron erasing who Gaia was against her will was wrong, but in terms of the connection between the two Gaia acknowledged it and in the end hopes to meet him again after he himself reincarnates.

Amon himself seemed to argue against that however when he stated that his motivations were unrelated to Hermes, for the WoL it’s a bit harder to tell as we don’t get to see the alternatives lives Azems soul may have had if they weren’t consistently chosen due to whose soul they possessed. We’re all Azems shards travelers and adventures? Hard to say.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No, they didn’t do so under the belief that their end was assured. It was their choice to do so, one made after they felt they fulfilled their purpose. But that’s not an assured end, that’s not recognizing the certainty of their mortality. To say your end is assured is to accept that it will happen regardless of if you desire it, that it is ultimately out of your control whether you will live forever or die young.

And that’s something they vehemently rejected.



Regarding what Lyth says about how do we know some other misfortune may come along, yes of course but that’s my point. We can argue that for any society anywhere, that something *could* happen in the future.



No, the problem is they did not want to move on, they wanted to move back. They wanted to forget it ever happened, to relinquish any lingering memories of the event and see the world returned to exactly as it was. Not just that Etheirys was livable again, not just that the apocalypse be halted, but that everything went back to the way it was, “To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.” And they took permanent steps to ensure that would happen, the third sacrifice being that.



It’s again not about deserving destruction, none of the civilizations deserved it. They did their best, but in choosing to base their future on “paradise,” they blinded themselves to the reality that so long as they lived they would face suffering.

Again, as i’ve mentioned many times before, why is it wrong for them to want to reverse the damage done, but for Ironworks it isn’t wrong? When there was the possibility of them causing the mass death of millions of not more to bring back the WoL and undo the calamity?

[EaraGrace]

Again, as i’ve mentioned many times before, why is it wrong for them to want to reverse the damage done, but for Ironworks it isn’t wrong? When there was the possibility of them causing the mass death of millions of not more to bring back the WoL and undo the calamity?

With all due respect please reread what I wrote. I made a clear distinction between reversing the damage and wanting to forget the event entirely to the point of sacrificing new life to return the lost. The former can be conducive to moving forward, the other is willing ignorance at best. Graha and the others made clear the events of the 8th Umbral timeline, and wished for the actions of those who lived it to be remembered.

[KizuyaKatogami]

With all due respect please reread what I wrote. I made a clear distinction between reversing the damage and wanting to forget the event entirely to the point of sacrificing new life to return the lost. The former can be conducive to moving forward, the other is willing ignorance at best. Graha and the others made clear the events of the 8th Umbral timeline, and wished for the actions of those who lived it to be remembered.

They were bringing back those who were lost yes, however is forgetting the event not what Hydaelyn herself did as well? Someone even Elidibus himself surmises. "They have forgotten, just as you and your followers wanted." They were effectively sacrificing new and old life both to undo the calamity and return the lost in the other timeline. It's really not so different.Could you provide a link or something btw showing that they wanted to forget the final days ever occurred? Genuinely asking because i probably missed that.

[Cleretic]

They were bringing back those who were lost yes, however is forgetting the event not what Hydaelyn herself did as well? Someone even Elidibus himself surmises. "They have forgotten, just as you and your followers wanted." They were effectively sacrificing new and old life both to undo the calamity and return the lost in the other timeline. It's really not so different.Could you provide a link or something btw showing that they wanted to forget the final days ever occurred? Genuinely asking because i probably missed that.

You want quotes, I got quotes. The benefit of making videos about all this stuff is that I have recorded all of it. This is what she is referring to:

Bitter Ancient: "We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again--a world free of sorrow!"

Venat: "No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time. So please, open your eyes. To try to reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated."

At this point the crowd turns around and raises their arms.

Fervent Ancient: "O mighty Zodiark, god borne of our boundless faith! We bid you hear our prayer! Accept this offering of lives, and deliver unto us the lives we once had. Deliver unto us the days of old... the days when the star was a font of love, and we knew naught but bliss!"

All in the scene right after we leave Elpis. While they don't literally say 'we want to forget', they do literally say 'we refuse to accept learning from misfortune, and want to go back to before bad things happened.' It's honestly really clear what's going on here, from what I can see.