Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[Grimoire-M]

Yeah I agree they should make you choose between Bahamut and Phoenix only to give more control to Phoenix's support capabilities. I really see no reason for the current, rigid cycle of Bahamut to Phoenix anymore unless they just want them to have a fair chance being used at the same amount.

That'll also give us more opportunities to get a 3rd Demi summon in the future, meaning more choices. SMN right now and during Shadowbringers is just too rigid.

I'd rather have Aetherflow (the action) back to be honest. That would fix the rigidity issue in a heartbeat. Have it grant access to Trances, Aetherflow stacks, the Avatar Gems, and Further Ruin. Problem solved. It's one of the major advantages that older iterations (ARR-SB, and Bahamut during ShB) had that gets underlooked a lot.

[dinnertime]

I'd rather have Aetherflow (the action) back to be honest. That would fix the rigidity issue in a heartbeat. Have it grant access to Trances, Aetherflow stacks, the Avatar Gems, and Further Ruin. Problem solved. It's one of the major advantages that older iterations (ARR-SB, and Bahamut during ShB) had that gets underlooked a lot.

Yeah. I was going to suggest that on the same post but I thought I was being too repetitive about how I miss old Aetherflow lol. It's really the source of flexibility and plentiful optimization about old SMN.

[Sequora]

I wonder if they turn carbuncle into just flavor and have him auto attack your current target, similar to how phoenix and bahamut behave, dealing nonexistent damage (like 10 potency). Summoning him, would give you “searing light ready”. Radiant aegis would be a summoner ability.

Summoning phoenix would have a similar effect, where it would give you “rekindle ready” for 2 minutes.

This would turn rekindle into a real ability instead of what it currently is. It would also take away most of carbuncle’s jank.

[Aikaal]

I wonder if they turn carbuncle into just flavor and have him auto attack your current target, similar to how phoenix and bahamut behave, dealing nonexistent damage (like 10 potency). Summoning him, would give you “searing light ready”. Radiant aegis would be a summoner ability.

Summoning phoenix would have a similar effect, where it would give you “rekindle ready” for 2 minutes.

This would turn rekindle into a real ability instead of what it currently is. It would also take away most of carbuncle’s jank.

I'll be honest, I feel Phoenix is an issue... Phoenix support is simply impractical and too rigid. Why is RDM so valuable on the first 30 seconds of P1S is because Magick Barrier is within your control. Hell, I even raise 3 people in 10 seconds during blind prog and we saw further because RDM support is just that good. I get Why Phoenix does more damage but it further shows it makes little sense.
- Phoenix is 80 and Bahamut 70, Phoenix was lesset DPS than Bahamut so you'd get a damage loss so they fixed it by just giving damage to Phoenix. This concept is a flaw in terms of lore. You make Phoenix stronger because it wouldn't make sense but Bahamut is, quite literally, the 7th calamity in your lore and provides more destruction.

I'll briefly open the door on the subject or Summoner lore. But Summons are usually 2 kind of Summons. Supportive and Offensive.
- Carbuncle and Phoenix are supportive
- Ifrit, Titan, Garuda and Phoenix are offensive

Does that make Phoenix weaker in a raid fight? No, it means thematically, you'll have healing mechanics because Phoenix represents flame and rebirth. I mean, P3S has some unique healing mechanics.

So why a supportive themed Summon outperform an offensive themed Summon? That makes no sense. It was a huge let down to see Dreadwyrm Trance gone and merged onto Bahamut. Why Everlasting Flight and Rekindle locked behidn time windows? Of course, because we can do Summon Phoenix which, on paper, is a Bahamut reskin with different damage values. Why not have Phoenix Ability themed skills like an instant raise with a CD, Rekindle, Everylasting FLight that could be some sort of Assize like ability with charges so it's a flex button between the choice of DPS or support. I know it'd be mainly use for DPS option but that's just Assize in general. I get some people would be disappointed in losing Summon Phoenix but if the idea we can't use these abilities is because we should use them on Summon Phoenix. Can... we just have Bahamut on a 60s. We could have Trance back but have it Phoenix themed? I know some people would be bumped out that Summon Phoenix isn't a thing anymore but honestly a lot of people are bumped out they don't have a Trance window now.

I do think we need some sort of Trance/Aetherflow mechanic back. Gameplay should always be the main priority of a job. Esthetic is important but if I can't enjoy to the point I'd rather play another job because of gameplay; that means it's a failure in general. Not complete failure, I do think some of the new changes are a nice beginning. Personally, my idea of rework and the elemental Summons was that the Summon G/I/T themselves was gonna be a pretty long cast (5s cast with 4s recast). The idea behind would be to charge the Summon and regardless that you finish the cast or not, the Summon still goes on and based on the time spent, you'd get a multiplier. Not only that'd be unique to Summoner but that's bring a lot of value to Spell Speed. Summoners always had longer casts on Summon in the history of the game anyways. That would also put some movement restriction which this part was thrown out of the window when SMN rework was made.

I don't know, maybe I'm just full on copium but the lack of communication from the dev teams on the SMN rework is really killing it for me.

[Grimoire-M]

I don't know, maybe I'm just full on copium but the lack of communication from the dev teams on the SMN rework is really killing it for me.

I think you’re just at the point I was when the rework was revealed. I spotted the red flags with the Avatars using the Resummon mechanic immediately. The micro phases were just an extra layer of padding on top of that.

I’ve since moved on to NIN (which I am enjoying), but I do miss the old versions of Summoner dearly. None were perfect but most were better. I don’t think this rework has any staying power so I’m not surprised by the lack of feedback from SE. They’re probably just as torn as we are. We need to actually get a video out on the nitty gritty technical details and why they’re a problem if we’re going to get useful changes in the long run. In the short term (within this expansion) it’s just going to suck. And it absolutely has good reasons to be held in check unless SE nerfs those aspects out of relevance.

[Aikaal]

I think you’re just at the point I was when the rework was revealed. I spotted the red flags with the Avatars using the Resummon mechanic immediately. The micro phases were just an extra layer of padding on top of that.

I’ve since moved on to NIN (which I am enjoying), but I do miss the old versions of Summoner dearly. None were perfect but most were better. I don’t think this rework has any staying power so I’m not surprised by the lack of feedback from SE. They’re probably just as torn as we are. We need to actually get a video out on the nitty gritty technical details and why they’re a problem if we’re going to get useful changes in the long run. In the short term (within this expansion) it’s just going to suck. And it absolutely has good reasons to be held in check unless SE nerfs those aspects out of relevance.

Well, yeah. If you take all the esthetic then SMN is quite simple. You wouldn't notice right away if you were a 80 SMN at 6.0 launch but it was a huge miss when you'd level SMN and from 70 to 80 you'd "gain" Phoenix which traded 500 potency for an automatic Medica II and Rekindle. They since fixed Phoenix by adding more power than Bahamut. Imho, SMN just collapses at 70. Yeah, Trance and Summon Bahamut are merged together now but you still gain new mechanics from 60 to 70. From 70 to 90, the only mechanics you gain are Elemental Summon Aetherflows which is just 1 button you'll use over Ruin III spam. SMN gets nothing special from 70 to 90. It's a stagnant learning curve for the job, rigid and impractical in raids. It does look pretty! I sure to like blinding myself in P3S when I need to figure if I'm stacking or spreading. I have a macro on my bars, I can because I have so many available buttons, it represents what I feel about SMN;



Now, this is a joke. People find it funny but it also reflects some sort of truth because I've killed people in my groups for having my summons to big.

I also think we've all got different opinions of what should be done to help SMN but I'm sure am glad we all agree that SMN gameplay is just the worst.

[Rolder50]

Now, this is a joke. People find it funny but it also reflects some sort of truth because I've killed people in my groups for having my summons to big.

Just a minor clarification here, but the petsize commands are player specific. That is to say, your petsize setting doesn't affect other people, they need to set petsize to small themselves and it'll change how they specifically see every summoner they interact with.

[XmissionsX]

I am curious has se or any community representative responded officially about the smn changes and all the concerned threads about the drastic changes ? And if the very low dps is indeed intended ?

[aveyond-dreams]

You are not entitled to a "community representative response" just because you're upset about a rework that was 8 years overdue, goodness. They might briefly touch on buffs to Summoner during the part 1 6.1 LL in March, if even that. Keep your expectations reasonable.

[Grimoire-M]

Just a minor clarification here, but the petsize commands are player specific. That is to say, your petsize setting doesn't affect other people, they need to set petsize to small themselves and it'll change how they specifically see every summoner they interact with.

It’s just another problem to add to the pile at this point.

I remain adamant that the future of the job is Carby being made a permanent fixture of the core rotation. The Avatars need to be reworked so that they don’t require a pet resummon to work, which invariably means they have to be represented as spells (think Dissidia Yuna) or pet actions if we want them to work. I think that’s doable if we make Carbuncle a ranged pet. Melee pets just plain suck, but SCH’s fairy does work perfectly if you use /place, so borrowing Garuda/Emerald from ShB will work as a baseline. And if Carby is the actual caster or we both contribute to Summoning the Avatars then even better.