Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[P0W3RK1D]

I believe a big part of why summoner feels this..."simplistic" is again due to the box Square Enix has coded themselves into as far as their game design. Where as in other final fantasy games summoner had more factors to worry about than just their dps that made being a summoner feel powerful and a very nice and versatile damage support (or even a 1vALL carpet-bombing dps depending on how ya built em).
Summoner had to deal with enemy status effects,
knowing what each of your summons did,
mana management and learning to save your MP for the right moment,
knowing what your enemy did because most likely you have a summon in your arsenals to counter that specific attack, but your needed to know what it is,
and not to mention Elemental weaknesses (one of the cornerstones of a Final fantasy game, and yet a simultaneous disappointment burried within this game.

all this on top of the fact that ff14 summoner has only 5 summons, 3-4 of which functionally do the same thing.
there is no CHOICE, like there is with other final fantasy games summoners.

[aveyond-dreams]

I'm sure the near-constant belittling and general negative mood must have done wonders for the cause of the "complexity!" lovers who would see reversions or meaningless busywork tacked on to Summoner again for no reason as opposed to meaningful additions or near-universally agreed upon potential improvements-you have the right to advocate for it all you like. Fortunately with this many jobs I can easily bounce around to whatever isn't feeling horrible to play, much like I did during the state of Summoner during Shadowbringers.

If they decide to go backwards, I can move on to better things. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for certain old SMN mains. In regards to who I speak for and what I ultimately want, give me the missing summons whether as glam, gem summons, or demis and I'm good. I like the rework and if you can give me more things that feel good to do-fantastic. Do not give me random things to do that have nothing to do with the job I'm playing.

No wonder they threw the old job into the trash can and gave up on it, I cannot imagine how taxing it must be to beholden to certain style of gameplay that seems nearly impossible to get "perfect" and will inadvertently have faults found no matter what direction things go in. If I had to choose between building a job around casual/middle of the road players or the complexity crowd, I know which one will be easier to deal with. The additional difficulty you want is right there in Savage and Extreme, if you want intensity then there it is. If Savage and Extreme are too easy for you then I am sorry that the game cannot exclusively cater to the top 0.05% of players. As it stands now the likeliest addition is a Scouting melee and a physical Ranged dps, the caster role is unlikely to have new additions in the vein of old SMN until 8.0.

[dinnertime]

Both SMN and RDM are honestly in a weird spot when it comes to utility, because what they can provide can mostly be useless after the progression phase. They have the heals and the raising while the only thing that always remains relevant is the damage party buff.

And then the Raise 'issue'. Personally I'm on the side that thinks that DPS Raise is not as great of utility people make it out to be, especially with people on these forums. I still remember BLMs getting so upset over it lol. There's many disadvantages to Raising like costing so much MP (to be fair isn't much of an issue anymore), wasting a GCD to use it and having an extremely long cast time which is not a problem to RDM, but is a problem to SMN now because Swiftcast is pretty much integrated to your rotation.

While I admit there still needs to be more disasvantages like maybe getting a damage debuff from using it, but Raise is so niche that I really don't think RDM and SMN should be at the very bottom because of it.

Also the mobility argument again. Shadowbringers and Endwalker has made so many jobs mobile. Even BLM, the antithesis of mobility, is extremely mobile these days. Granted I haven't touched the current savage content to really be credible about this, I still don't think this argument holds much water anymore.

[Reinha]

Raise is so niche that I really don't think RDM and SMN should be at the very bottom because of it.

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

Raise has always been a problem for the caster role because it causes unbalance among the casters. Rdm is better at rez because of dualcast and became a meme as a rez mage back in SB and ShB since they were mostly taken for prog and drop afterward, smn can only rez once per min, and now with EW smn don't really want to rez at all bc swift cast is part of their rotation now, and blm has asked for a rez so they can be apart of prog more. Is raise really good? Yes, but it has caused a lot of problems for the caster role when it comes to filling that role in a party during prog and farming. Personally, I want one of two things to happen to the caster rez. One: just delete it from rdm and smn completely and buff them accordingly. That way we don't have these arguments about who is better for prog and farming among the casters. Or two: Nerf the rez to have a 1 to 2 min cooldown, make it a oGCD and instacast, and make it a role action. That way smn, rdm, and blm has the same type of rez at all time.

[Reinha]

Personally, I want one of two things to happen to the caster rez. One: just delete it from rdm and smn completely and buff them accordingly. That way we don't have these arguments about who is better for prog and farming among the casters. Or two: Nerf the rez to have a 1 to 2 min cooldown, make it a oGCD and instacast, and make it a role action. That way smn, rdm, and blm has the same type of rez at all time.

I agree with these solutions. It could be an oGCD role action, but I'd say the cd should be longer than that so casters aren't solely responsible for raising. Maybe 5 minutes.

BRD and dancer should be at they bottom with the amount of damage utility they provide. No question.

Dancer and Bard because their supports are up 100%?

Also if I never pressed Raise once in a fight, should my DPS still suffer because of it? This is why they should just give SMN/RDM a damage debuff when they use it as compensation, so people would stop complaining about it.

Maybe I should have clarified that I was talking about rDPS, the total damage contribution that takes into account the damage caused from sharing buffs. DNC has two heals with long cooldowns and BRD has Esuna-lite and a healing buff. If the argument is that a Raise is not useful because healers are powerful and constantly bored, then extra heals are even less useful. They can't save a run if healers die, but a Raise can. Jobs in the ranged role don't even offer TP and MP anymore.

Even if you never press Raise during the whole fight, the point is you still have it. Why take a BRD or DNC as a 4th dps when SMN does equal or more damage (rDPS), is equally mobile but is also able to recover a run when it's needed? Other jobs need to provide something that makes up for their lack of utility, and that something has typically been higher dps.

[Rika007]

I agree with these solutions. It could be an oGCD role action, but I'd say the cd should be longer than that so casters aren't solely responsible for raising. Maybe 5 minutes.

Maybe I should have clarified that I was talking about rDPS, the total damage contribution that takes into account the damage caused from sharing buffs. DNC has two heals with long cooldowns and BRD has Esuna-lite and a healing buff. If the argument is that a Raise is not useful because healers are powerful and constantly bored, then extra heals are even less useful. They can't save a run if healers die, but a Raise can. Jobs in the ranged role don't even offer TP and MP anymore.

Even if you never press Raise during the whole fight, the point is you still have it. Why take a BRD or DNC as a 4th dps when SMN does equal or more damage (rDPS), is equally mobile but is also able to recover a run when it's needed? Other jobs need to provide something that makes up for their lack of utility, and that something has typically been higher dps.

I think at this point we all understand what you are saying, we just don't agree. I just don't view the ability to save a run IF things go wrong as that massive of an ability. Especially since the actual use of said resurrections already comes with very real trade offs (Both jobs taking a hit to their DPS, loss of a mobility tool, and the weakness to the player being rezzed). It's balancing around the idea of the lowest common denominator, aka, the worst players. Which is just not how balance should be done.

If the devs are balancing with that in mind then I'd rather they just axe the rez entirely from the caster role and only allow healers to be in charge of it. Heck they removed mana shift and refresh from the Casters and Ranged DPS to give healers some level of agency, just do it with this too.

[Rolder50]

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

Problem there is that preventing people from dying in the first place is generally superior to picking them up after. Therefore, mitigation tends to be preferred. And what does RDM have over SMN in addition to being able to raise more freely? A mitigation. Why would anyone bring SMN when RDM has more utility and equivalent if not superior damage.

[Ggwppino]

SMNs offer a good amount of utility: Free healing for the group + a targeted heal every minute that doesn't come at the cost of dps, a decent self shield every 30s, and the ability to rez which only one other dps can do. They are extremely mobile and ranged with an incredibly straight-forward rotation that's almost impossible to mess up - it doesn't always do well with downtime but that's a design problem more than a numbers problem. And they have a raid buff. It makes sense to me that their adps would be among the lowest.

I think that smn heals are really situational: most of the time they're useless overheal, and single target heal it's not exactly free since you lose an attack. Phoenix already in shadowbringer had design problems and with endwalker they remained, if not worsened. Ress is useless outside progress or casual game but most important smn lacks ogcds to make the filler phase more interesting.

[Sequora]

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

BRD and dancer should be at they bottom with the amount of damage utility they provide. No question.