Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[Zagg]

Frankly, I love the current theme and idea behind the SMN rework, and I think the flow is fantastic and offers great opportunities to add rotational abilities and more opportunities for skill expression, which it is currently lacking at the moment. I just hope they commit to this iteration and use it as a building block for the job, as it lends itself wonderfully to that with far less potential jank as more gets added to it.

[Rolder50]

Frankly, I love the current theme and idea behind the SMN rework, and I think the flow is fantastic and offers great opportunities to add rotational abilities and more opportunities for skill expression, which it is currently lacking at the moment. I just hope they commit to this iteration and use it as a building block for the job, as it lends itself wonderfully to that with far less potential jank as more gets added to it.

In terms of jank, the worst part of old summoner is still there, with Searing Light being tied to Carbuncle. Means you can still ghost it pretty easily. Not only that, it's also easy to drift the cooldown when you want to use it with bahamut.

[Aikaal]

In terms of jank, the worst part of old summoner is still there, with Searing Light being tied to Carbuncle. Means you can still ghost it pretty easily. Not only that, it's also easy to drift the cooldown when you want to use it with bahamut.

I'd also say that its pretty janky that Summon G/I/T requires Summon B/P. That's just me however. I personally do not like the restrictiveness that comes that you absolutely have to open with Bahamut. Wish you could just have the option of Baha or Phoe and they both share the same recast time. Spice it up and gives a buff to the other one so you can work with variations. I think they completely missed the mark when the SMN community didn't want Devotion to be a pet action and restricted to Carbuncle because they added more. I know it was mention also but I'll also say it. Why is Carbuncle position not matter when you do any Summon? What's the point of the action Place. Really, what's the point? Because I put Carbuncle in the middle at the beginning to make sure Searing Light hits everyone but Carbuncle's position constantly moves. It's pretty silly if you ask me.

After playing through the MSQ, both EX trials, and a couple of savage floors on Summoner, I've come to the conclusion that while SMN feels good aesthetically and is fun to play in dungeons, I don't like the way it feels in high-end content. Again, this is just a personal opinion and not a fact. My main concerns are around the inflexible rotation, which leads to lockouts of abilities during certain phases, and the lack of opportunities to optimize. I don't want a total rework, but I do plan to shelve SMN for the remainder of the expansion wrt high-end content and just hope (but not expect) some changes to make it better.

Not wanting to compare but after clearing the first 3 floors on SMN, I'm going RDM on the 4th fight. You know what SMN can't do that RDM can? When you prog blind and have 3 deaths and you still go full party on the next mechanics because you can cast 3 raises in 10 seconds. It's also great that I don't have to complain every 10 minutes about SMN in raid because RDM is just so much better in term of performances and gameplay.

[darcstar62]

After playing through the MSQ, both EX trials, and a couple of savage floors on Summoner, I've come to the conclusion that while SMN feels good aesthetically and is fun to play in dungeons, I don't like the way it feels in high-end content. Again, this is just a personal opinion and not a fact. My main concerns are around the inflexible rotation, which leads to lockouts of abilities during certain phases, and the lack of opportunities to optimize. I don't want a total rework, but I do plan to shelve SMN for the remainder of the expansion wrt high-end content and just hope (but not expect) some changes to make it better.

[Nizzi]

I know people hate RNG, especially for optimization, but if they're sticking to the "on rails rotation" of "summon Bahamut, burn your 3 primals, summon Phoenix, burn your 3 primals" I'd like for them to introduce more summons that you randomly get. Instead of getting Ifrit, Garuda and Titan every time, you might get Ifrit, Shiva and Alex one time and then maybe Leviathan, Ramuh, Garuda, etc and they could have longer cast times, shorter, etc. I know it could be punishing to get 3 summons that are longer cast times in a movement heavy part but outside of that I think it'd be a way to make Summoner feel less like a job that plays the same everytime. I'd much rather have something like that then getting 3 new summons that just come during the Phoenix phase and are the same everytime, which is my biggest issue with the job atm.

[dinnertime]

Yeah I agree they should make you choose between Bahamut and Phoenix only to give more control to Phoenix's support capabilities. I really see no reason for the current, rigid cycle of Bahamut to Phoenix anymore unless they just want them to have a fair chance being used at the same amount.

That'll also give us more opportunities to get a 3rd Demi summon in the future, meaning more choices. SMN right now and during Shadowbringers is just too rigid.

[Grimoire-M]

Yeah I agree they should make you choose between Bahamut and Phoenix only to give more control to Phoenix's support capabilities. I really see no reason for the current, rigid cycle of Bahamut to Phoenix anymore unless they just want them to have a fair chance being used at the same amount.

That'll also give us more opportunities to get a 3rd Demi summon in the future, meaning more choices. SMN right now and during Shadowbringers is just too rigid.

I'd rather have Aetherflow (the action) back to be honest. That would fix the rigidity issue in a heartbeat. Have it grant access to Trances, Aetherflow stacks, the Avatar Gems, and Further Ruin. Problem solved. It's one of the major advantages that older iterations (ARR-SB, and Bahamut during ShB) had that gets underlooked a lot.

[dinnertime]

I'd rather have Aetherflow (the action) back to be honest. That would fix the rigidity issue in a heartbeat. Have it grant access to Trances, Aetherflow stacks, the Avatar Gems, and Further Ruin. Problem solved. It's one of the major advantages that older iterations (ARR-SB, and Bahamut during ShB) had that gets underlooked a lot.

Yeah. I was going to suggest that on the same post but I thought I was being too repetitive about how I miss old Aetherflow lol. It's really the source of flexibility and plentiful optimization about old SMN.

[Sequora]

I wonder if they turn carbuncle into just flavor and have him auto attack your current target, similar to how phoenix and bahamut behave, dealing nonexistent damage (like 10 potency). Summoning him, would give you “searing light ready”. Radiant aegis would be a summoner ability.

Summoning phoenix would have a similar effect, where it would give you “rekindle ready” for 2 minutes.

This would turn rekindle into a real ability instead of what it currently is. It would also take away most of carbuncle’s jank.

[Aikaal]

I wonder if they turn carbuncle into just flavor and have him auto attack your current target, similar to how phoenix and bahamut behave, dealing nonexistent damage (like 10 potency). Summoning him, would give you “searing light ready”. Radiant aegis would be a summoner ability.

Summoning phoenix would have a similar effect, where it would give you “rekindle ready” for 2 minutes.

This would turn rekindle into a real ability instead of what it currently is. It would also take away most of carbuncle’s jank.

I'll be honest, I feel Phoenix is an issue... Phoenix support is simply impractical and too rigid. Why is RDM so valuable on the first 30 seconds of P1S is because Magick Barrier is within your control. Hell, I even raise 3 people in 10 seconds during blind prog and we saw further because RDM support is just that good. I get Why Phoenix does more damage but it further shows it makes little sense.
- Phoenix is 80 and Bahamut 70, Phoenix was lesset DPS than Bahamut so you'd get a damage loss so they fixed it by just giving damage to Phoenix. This concept is a flaw in terms of lore. You make Phoenix stronger because it wouldn't make sense but Bahamut is, quite literally, the 7th calamity in your lore and provides more destruction.

I'll briefly open the door on the subject or Summoner lore. But Summons are usually 2 kind of Summons. Supportive and Offensive.
- Carbuncle and Phoenix are supportive
- Ifrit, Titan, Garuda and Phoenix are offensive

Does that make Phoenix weaker in a raid fight? No, it means thematically, you'll have healing mechanics because Phoenix represents flame and rebirth. I mean, P3S has some unique healing mechanics.

So why a supportive themed Summon outperform an offensive themed Summon? That makes no sense. It was a huge let down to see Dreadwyrm Trance gone and merged onto Bahamut. Why Everlasting Flight and Rekindle locked behidn time windows? Of course, because we can do Summon Phoenix which, on paper, is a Bahamut reskin with different damage values. Why not have Phoenix Ability themed skills like an instant raise with a CD, Rekindle, Everylasting FLight that could be some sort of Assize like ability with charges so it's a flex button between the choice of DPS or support. I know it'd be mainly use for DPS option but that's just Assize in general. I get some people would be disappointed in losing Summon Phoenix but if the idea we can't use these abilities is because we should use them on Summon Phoenix. Can... we just have Bahamut on a 60s. We could have Trance back but have it Phoenix themed? I know some people would be bumped out that Summon Phoenix isn't a thing anymore but honestly a lot of people are bumped out they don't have a Trance window now.

I do think we need some sort of Trance/Aetherflow mechanic back. Gameplay should always be the main priority of a job. Esthetic is important but if I can't enjoy to the point I'd rather play another job because of gameplay; that means it's a failure in general. Not complete failure, I do think some of the new changes are a nice beginning. Personally, my idea of rework and the elemental Summons was that the Summon G/I/T themselves was gonna be a pretty long cast (5s cast with 4s recast). The idea behind would be to charge the Summon and regardless that you finish the cast or not, the Summon still goes on and based on the time spent, you'd get a multiplier. Not only that'd be unique to Summoner but that's bring a lot of value to Spell Speed. Summoners always had longer casts on Summon in the history of the game anyways. That would also put some movement restriction which this part was thrown out of the window when SMN rework was made.

I don't know, maybe I'm just full on copium but the lack of communication from the dev teams on the SMN rework is really killing it for me.