When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Absimiliard]

Here's the thing, though, which is actually related to the topic at hand: the Ancients reacted so horrifically poorly not just 'because of trauma', but because to them it was unprecedented trauma. They'd spent so long completely without any kind of suffering that when it inevitably came (as it inevitably does, no matter what), they had absolutely no experience in how to deal with anything like it, and so no framework in how to make a good decision.

The second sacrifice was tragic and completely understandable, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake made by people who just didn't have the life experience required to do things right.

And us? We learn from that, and try to avoid making the same mistakes. Because that's how life is: we experience suffering, be it first or second hand, and try to not fall in the same holes.

We know just from playing through the game that the Ancients were quite well acquainted with suffering. We also know that they were actually even quicker to learn from their mistakes than the sundered a lot of the time. Like the sundered, they too had their own battles to fight. Also like the sundered, many of these battles weren't of a physical nature. Their fighting probably would never have stopped either.

That aside, how do you figure the second set of sacrifices was a mistake? The planet was quite literally no longer capable of supporting life. Were it not for the second sacrifice to Zodiark, it would've remained a barren wasteland all but devoid of life. In time, even the remaining Ancients (of which the game leads us to believe were only the Amaurotines, all others beyond it having apparently already died) would've succumbed to the near-literal hellscape the environment had become. More than merely fixing the world, it was through the second set of sacrifices that new life was sown upon it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

We know just from playing through the game that the Ancients were quite well acquainted with suffering. We also know that they were actually even quicker to learn from their mistakes than the sundered a lot of the time. Like the sundered, they too had their own battles to fight. Also like the sundered, many of these battles weren't of a physical nature. Their fighting probably would never have stopped either.

That aside, how do you figure the second set of sacrifices was a mistake? The planet was quite literally no longer capable of supporting life. Were it not for the second sacrifice to Zodiark, it would've remained a barren wasteland all but devoid of life. In time, even the remaining Ancients (of which the game leads us to believe were only the Amaurotines, all others beyond it having apparently already died) would've succumbed to the near-literal hellscape the environment had become. More than merely fixing the world, it was through the second set of sacrifices that new life was sown upon it.

I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

[Pofruin]

I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

Do we? The entire Elpis flower sequence starting with its introduction and random shining during early parts of EW MSQ, is a set up that pays off when Hermis comments that it doesn't shine much different colors here or anywhere on Etherys. This gives us information that Ancients while not emotionless just don't experience much strong or varied emotions. This is also reinforced with Emmet's comments that he just can't understand the sadness Hermis feels. It was "pang of sadness" as he put it, then you carry on. Sure there where suffering individuals, but general culture was telling them how they should or should not feel in different situations (this was known from ShB Amaurot shades).

The main attribute of Ancient society is Mask. Rather on the nose metaphor for society that hides their true feelings all the time, is it not?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Do we? The entire Elpis flower sequence starting with its introduction and random shining during early parts of EW MSQ, is a set up that pays off when Hermis comments that it doesn't shine much different colors here or anywhere on Etherys. This gives us information that Ancients while not emotionless just don't experience much strong or varied emotions. This is also reinforced with Emmet's comments that he just can't understand the sadness Hermis feels. It was "pang of sadness" as he put it, then you carry on. Sure there where suffering individuals, but general culture was telling them how they should or should not feel in different situations (this was known from ShB Amaurot shades).

The main attribute of Ancient society is Mask. Rather on the nose metaphor for society that hides their true feelings all the time, is it not?

Yes we do, you just answered it yourself. There were suffering people. We see this if you do the side quests in Elpis or even Pandaemonium with Lahabrea and Erich. Suffering was not some foreign concept. We see people who have the same qualms as Hermes however they’re able to work past it. Considering the sadness we’ve seen Elidibus exhibit, or anger that Emet does, there isn’t much that supports them as being devoid of most emotion. If anything they’re just better at keeping it in check than sundered races are.

[Pofruin]

Yes we do, you just answered it yourself. There were suffering people. We see this if you do the side quests in Elpis or even Pandaemonium with Lahabrea and Erich. Suffering was not some foreign concept. We see people who have the same qualms as Hermes however they’re able to work past it. Considering the sadness we’ve seen Elidibus exhibit, or anger that Emet does, there isn’t much that supports them as being devoid of most emotion. If anything they’re just better at keeping it in check than sundered races are.

I rather specifically mentioned them to not be emotionless, did I not? My point is not the lack of emotions but intensity of them. Coming up to clinically depressed person and telling him you know how it feels you also feel sad once in a while is bit delusional (and arsholish but thats not here nor there). The Ancient suffering is incomparable to Despair, for once they did experience it it broke them. (Case in point Emet in Elpis and Emet in ShB).

I do not discount Ancient capacity to feel. Rather their use of Creation magic afforded them so much comfort that anything more than minor inconveniences are uncommon. One could argue that Convocation grade Ancients are more emotionally resilient due to stress of their position. And they where significantly more resilient during Final Days also. But rank and file? Not so much.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I rather specifically mentioned them to not be emotionless, did I not? My point is not the lack of emotions but intensity of them. Coming up to clinically depressed person and telling him you know how it feels you also feel sad once in a while is bit delusional (and arsholish but thats not here nor there). The Ancient suffering is incomparable to Despair, for once they did experience it it broke them. (Case in point Emet in Elpis and Emet in ShB).

I do not discount Ancient capacity to feel. Rather their use of Creation magic afforded them so much comfort that anything more than minor inconveniences are uncommon. One could argue that Convocation grade Ancients are more emotionally resilient due to stress of their position. And they where significantly more resilient during Final Days also. But rank and file? Not so much.

While they did have comfort, we're shown time and time again that comfort does not buy happiness. Look at Erich with Pandemonium for example. He's clearly suffering, clearly in grief over his mother and the distancing from his father. It's very akin to how normal everyday people feel in situations like that,and while this is speculation, we will most likely learn that Lahabrea too is grieving for his wife. We see the despair break anyone it touches. Look at Thavnair and Garlemald for example. Even Fordola could hardly escape it. This is a bit away from my overall point though. I was merely giving my thoughts because another poster claimed they spent so long without any kind of suffering when we know factually this isnt the case.

In fairness, you've done a respectable job of sticking to the topic, which relates to suffering and resilience. Frustrations were high because the anti-Venat thinktank came in to take out their narcissistic aggression on forum posters, but they'll get bored soon enough.

I'd really rather we not namecall or insinuate things. It's childish and detrimental to the goal of the forums.

[EaraGrace]

I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

The phrase “to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had” comes to mind. Clearly many were of the mind that suffering was not a thing.



What suffering existed was minor, and limited to a handful of people.

But I don't think anyone has bad vision, in terms of looking at the story. I do think you, and others, do not care to look beyond what pleases you with regards to characters and their stories. I don't understand why or how.

I don't focus on the rosy parts of the story when I post, because the story already focused on them. Hoping I wouldn't think too hard about all of it. Sometimes, I wish I ruminated less over it, but that's not me.

I ruminate a great deal on the less happy parts of the story, the moral quandaries and the issues at play. All the paths to me end in the same conclusion, an opinion clearly not shared by all.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The phrase “to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had” comes to mind. Clearly many were of the mind that suffering was not a thing.



What suffering existed was minor, and limited to a handful of people.



I ruminate a great deal on the less happy parts of the story, the moral quandaries and the issues at play. All the paths to me end in the same conclusion, an opinion clearly not shared by all.

People keep repeating that line, but we need to actually use context for it. Compared to the mass suffering and horrible circumstances they were facing, their world before it occurred truly was a perfect paradise compared to what they had experienced. It’s subjective as to how each player will take it but that’s how i’ve taken it since i first read it. It goes along with the whole, you never really cherish something until it’s gone, kind of along the lines of that. It’s a comparison.I really don’t think you can jump to a conclusion that the suffering was minor. Especially given the side quests. We also don’t even know about the other societies so to say that and jump to that conclusion is a bit much.

Something to note about the elpis flowers btw, is that they cant easily be affected by aetheric density from what we're told. Its not really to do with them not having a range of emotions.

[EaraGrace]

People keep repeating that line, but we need to actually use context for it. Compared to the mass suffering and horrible circumstances they were facing, their world before it occurred truly was a perfect paradise compared to what they had experienced. It’s subjective as to how each player will take it but that’s how i’ve taken it since i first read it. It goes along with the whole, you never really cherish something until it’s gone, kind of along the lines of that. It’s a comparison.I really don’t think you can jump to a conclusion that the suffering was minor. Especially given the side quests. We also don’t even know about the other societies so to say that and jump to that conclusion is a bit much.

Something to note about the elpis flowers btw, is that they cant easily be affected by aetheric density from what we're told. Its not really to do with them not having a range of emotions.

I think that’s the question at play though. If it truly was a paradise, even comparatively, then we must also recognize that their suffering was lessened as well, no?