The dev team did a fantastic job on the MNK rework. I love it.

[Navnav]

Someone else already asked you for such an answer, you ignored that. And now you're asking for the same? To copy'n'paste some stuff?!


Your ideas above are bad. Have you played too much SMN? What's the point that skills become just other skills with more potency or that we spam chakra way more?

You clearly don't want some real gameplay with variety across the board. All what you want is too feel good by pressing 1 button obviously.
"Reward me with big potency and shiny animations please!"
Ridiculous...

Ok if you don't like it cool.
I gotta say you are beyond toxic. Oh by the way, YOUR POSITIONALS ARE GONE, GONE GONE GONE. Go stand in a corner and strafe left and right for nostalgia... Honestly, you are something else. Oh and GONE!

[Mikey_R]

You can voice your opinion without having to discredit others opinions on an entirely subjective matter.

Your parents should have taught you that when you were like 5 years old.

I like Monk with a few less positionals.

..I also like seeing a bunch of socially inept people on the Internet get mad because I don't like the same things they do lol

Opinions are there to be voiced and criticised, if you could not criticise an opinion, who knows what sort of ideas could be thrown around. I always encourage people to challenge my ideas/opinions and that can only come with conversations. This can also lead to better understanding between parties about what is good and what is bad. This is the basis of Critical Analysis which aims to broaden a person's way of thinking. This is something you should have been taught when you were older and is one of the principles of having a proper discussion.

Also;

In ShB, Monk was the sole job with alot of positional requirements in a role that had 4 options in total.
In EW, Monk is now a job with few positionals in a role that has 5 options.
People liked the fact there was a job that had a high positional count.
People are upset that the one job that fit a gameplay they enjoy is now gone.

All of those points are objective facts. We have lost a playstyle for...no reason? Doesn't help that when the changes were implemented, this same guy basically came on here and gloated about it, essentially rubbing it in our faces with a big screw you.

Positionals being removed because of PB was something given by devs, but they could have done something different, like Perfect Balance removing positional requirements, that way, during the PB window where there is alot going on, you do not have to worry about them. Instead, they went the route where they took it away from everything and the gameplay suffered for it.

We get the argument of, you don't like Monk? Play something else? What exactly? Nothing has loads of positionals, there is nothing else. If you didn't like positionals, you would have 4 melee to choose from compared to our 1 choice in Monk.

The side that presents positionals as a positive for the job have always come back with arguments about how they make a job more engaging, pointing out the hypocrisy from other others and all we get in return is not a discussion, it is more of a tough balls, I do not care. I even encouraged the conversation in post 86 essentially pleading, tell me why you do not like them, let me understand, but they have not responded to it. Would I have criticised their points? Of course, but that is what I want, feel free to criticise me as well, I am not afraid of what someone has to say or having my mind changed, but so far, no arguments have been compelling enough to change it.

[Navnav]

I can tell you why i didn't like that many positionals.

Because they felt pointless. NOT DIFFICULT, pointless. Hate mechanics of a class needlessly thrown into the mix simply because no one could be bothered to think how to make the class function properly. That is essentially what monk was. Kudos to them for getting it right.

[Mikey_R]

All the suggestions revolve around positionals, I am genuinely asking (i mean that), what you would like to see without positionals being back to more than what they are now. What would you like to see or do you think would make MNK more engaging for you mechanically, without the positionals?

Monk's main problem is the downtime between burst windows being boring. There is not alot to do and TFC really doesn't fill that hole. This is why positionals are heavily requested as they are an easy way to keep someone's mind occupied during these periods that doesn't require adding any extra moves or changing potencies. However, here are some suggestions on what could be done, not necessarily at the same time, but they are positional related, so you can assume this is with a kit back full of positionals.

1. PB change. I have said this a few times now, but changing PB to ignore positionals would help in the burst windows. It can be alot to keep track of, so easing that burden for the APM heavy segments of the fight by allowing you to ignore positionals will help. The PB windows was also the excuse the dev team used to get rid of them, but I feel it was overboard and this would bring things back on track.

2. A change to Dragon Kick and Bootshine. Currently, it seems the team want to make Opo-opo a crit stance. Well then, lets make it a crit stance. Bootshine and Dragon Kick both auto crit regardless of positionals and make them buff each other. Give Bootshine a buff that, when landed, gives a 'Leaden Kick' buff that boosts Dragon Kick, the same way Dragon Kick boosts Bootshine. I would also make this a stacking system. You can stack, say, up to 2 of each buff and each time you use the corresponding Opo-opo move, you remove 1 stack. To give an example;

Dragon Kick (Gain Leaden Fist) > filler > Dragon Kick (2 Leaden fist) > Filler > Bootshine (Gives Leaden Kick, takes away 1 Leaden Fist) > etc.

This has the benefit of having some flexibility to the positional you can hit and you aren't punished for using one twice in a row. With both Dragon Kick and Bootshine being auto crits, it also helps to build TFC faster with the maximum time between TFC being ~26 seconds, which is about the same as Dragoons Wyrmwind Thrust (~25 seconds) as a comparison.

3. This one will require a bit work, but add a new Form, Opo-opo > Raptor > Coeurl > Dragon as an example. Dragon would have 2 attacks, each the same potency, one has positional for the rear, one has it for the flank. This again is a way to have a choice on what you do regardless of buffs, so whatever is easier. This could also be expanded into the Lunar/Solar system. One attack gives a Lunar Nadi, the other gives a Solar Nadi, you can then design a system around that. You have to build up X of both Lunar and Solar to use a strong oGCD, or, have them build up similar to beast chakra, in that you build 2 Lunar for an attack, 2 Solar for another attack or a combination of the 2 for another. This is still fresh in my mind, so exact details are scarce but it could be interesting.

4. Making Riddle of Wind into a trait that not only increases Auto attack rate but also movement speed (or just movement if you want). This is just a QoL and is aimed at making Monk move faster so that you can have a bit more leeway in getting into position to, well, get your positionals off.

5. If you truly want a suggestion doesn't rely on positionals, then some of the changes I listed above could work without positionals just as well. Though, a simple oGCD with a 20 second cooldown would make alot of difference in the feel for Monk, but you then run into the issue of 'that's just a boring oGCD that you just hit'. Not saying that is a bad thing, but it is an argument people could use.

I can tell you why i didn't like that many positionals.

Because they felt pointless. NOT DIFFICULT, pointless. Hate mechanics of a class needlessly thrown into the mix simply because no one could be bothered to think how to make the class function properly. That is essentially what monk was. Kudos to them for getting it right.

In your opinion, they are pointless, but in others, they are not. They like the thought that goes into landing positionals around mechanics. I get it, you do not like that, but that doesn't mean others do not, however, just because you do not like something, does not mean it should be changed.

[Navnav]

In your opinion, they are pointless, but in others, they are not. They like the thought that goes into landing positionals around mechanics. I get it, you do not like that, but that doesn't mean others do not, however, just because you do not like something, does not mean it should be changed.

I get your point, but that isn't reality. Some people HATE an opposing political party, but have to accept change if at elections that party wins over the one they support. It is just the simple reality. When others hated it, you enjoyed it, now the others can enjoy it while you hate it. Sometimes it is just the way things go.

[Mikey_R]

I get your point, but that isn't reality. Some people HATE an opposing political party, but have to accept change if at elections that party wins over the one they support. It is just the simple reality. When others hated it, you enjoyed it, now the others can enjoy it while you hate it. Sometimes it is just the way things go.

The difference here is that in politics, you have 1 party in charge, you cannot choose to follow someone else, so you are essentially forced into following someone you do not. With melee jobs however, you are not forced into one job. You do not like positionals, or at least loads of positionals, you have other options that you can play that affect noone else. So I can stay with my heavy positional job and you can play something else. Everyone wins. However, my choice has been taken away and nothing to replace it. If you want to then compare this to politics (which is not an area I excel in at all), it would be similar to the left changing their ideals completely and essentially become another right party. The left then lose their option on who to vote for and the right are there with choices and just telling the left to suck it up.

[Blutiful]

Ok if you don't like it cool.
I gotta say you are beyond toxic. Oh by the way, YOUR POSITIONALS ARE GONE, GONE GONE GONE. Go stand in a corner and strafe left and right for nostalgia... Honestly, you are something else. Oh and GONE!

i've been laughing at this for like 3 minutes the interactions between these two are the best thing in this thread

Monk was a class many were unsatisfied with before. That is true. But what is also true is that Monk is a class that a lot of veterans are now discontent with. That doesn't necessarily mean this rework is a horrendous failure that has no upsides, nor does it mean it can't be improved upon. I think it's valid also for Monk players(of which I have been one since 2.0,) to be highly skeptical of the claim that this rework is a new foundation which they'll build upon and add to and make more complex because - that's some shit we've heard so many times that at this point Square Enix is starting to sound like Monk's absentee father.

I'm rather indifferent to the removal of positionals, and can even profess to not being the biggest fan of them either, but what I did love about Monk was the fast-paced gameplay. Not just the GCD speed, but the ogcds, Howling Fist, Steel Peak, the timers, the ogcds, chakra, and the positionals, a whirlwind mishmash of nonsense to keep the ADHD brain going. And yeah, I get that this wasn't everyone's thing, but what I'm hearing a lot in this thread is that we can all agree there's not a single job in this game now that satisfies this niche for the dedicated Monk players there are out there. I think it's actually more egregious, more criminal that they didn't replace positionals with something as or more busy than anything else, and I get that vibe from a lot of other monks.

There's a lot of me that nods in agreement that a crucial part of the identity of this job feels missing. I can't quite vocalize it other than 'chaos'. I cannot emphasize enough I think this could be resolved in a number of ways that are not just restoring the positionals. If they were to do anything that makes me have to do something besides the basic rotation I've been doing since Titan Hard Mode was relevant endgame content, but minus the positionals, I would find Monk's current iteration far more fun and enjoyable in the downtime between your Blitzes and RoF/Brotherhood windows.

But failing all this, yeah, I think adding the positionals back would be an improvement, only because of how stale the current gameplay loop feels at times.

But this is also highly subjective, and perhaps the rising amount of Monk players(because the job does the sick nasty deeps, yo, let's keep it real, that's honestly probably the main draw right now,) will be the data that speaks louder than the threads.

Or maybe they'll get it right on the 18th Monk rework?

[Sqwall]

I can tell you why i didn't like that many positionals.

Because they felt pointless. NOT DIFFICULT, pointless. Hate mechanics of a class needlessly thrown into the mix simply because no one could be bothered to think how to make the class function properly. That is essentially what monk was. Kudos to them for getting it right.

I agree completely. I never got satisfaction from completing positionals or happy chemicals released for something NOT DIFFICULT. I never sat back on my couch and thought, "Man, I really hit those positionals perfectly! I'm the best!".

The two positionals that are left is the RIGHT amount of annoyance. It's not overbearing, and it's also in line with other Melee jobs. I have no issues with DRG, SAM, or NIN positonals. Those jobs ALSO have the right amount of positionals.

Monk is better off and I would love to see the population results of who played it then...to who plays it now. I for one have been running into MANY monks in all content. I have also spoke with MNK mains in my FC that ALSO say good riddance to positionals being removed, and they aren't complaining.

I'm under the assumption now that those still pushing for everything to go back to the way it was or Blitz "is horrible", simply just can't see the forest beyond the trees. MNK isn't perfect...but it is LEAPS AND BOUNDS better then what we had for 7 years. I think it's time to let go.

Greased Lightning isn't coming back, 6 Positionals aren't coming back, stances aren't coming back. I'm already past all that...and I'm looking at what can they ADD. Will I have to wait for 7.0...sure. Will I enjoy MNK until then....yes! Will I have to listen to those still in denial....obviously. Ignore me on the forums if you want...I really don't care....I never have. The less I have to interact with vitriolic or hyperbolic attitudes the better...don't need that in my life, and I use these forums to express my view or opinions. Ask questions, and start good dialogue, with the occasional elated post. And I don't think the Dev team ignore or block anyone, but I do think they have their ears to the rails on these topics.

BUT IF.....IF the dev's see this or anything I post I want them to know this.... YOU DID A GOOD JOB WITH MONK!
I know it was like 40 miles of bad road for Monk....but this new road you have paved is MUCH better. Keep up the good work SE!

[Sqwall]

i've been laughing at this for like 3 minutes the interactions between these two are the best thing in this thread

Monk was a class many were unsatisfied with before. That is true. But what is also true is that Monk is a class that a lot of veterans are now discontent with. That doesn't necessarily mean this rework is a horrendous failure that has no upsides, nor does it mean it can't be improved upon. I think it's valid also for Monk players(of which I have been one since 2.0,) to be highly skeptical of the claim that this rework is a new foundation which they'll build upon and add to and make more complex because - that's some shit we've heard so many times that at this point Square Enix is starting to sound like Monk's absentee father.

I'm rather indifferent to the removal of positionals, and can even profess to not being the biggest fan of them either, but what I did love about Monk was the fast-paced gameplay. Not just the GCD speed, but the ogcds, Howling Fist, Steel Peak, the timers, the ogcds, chakra, and the positionals, a whirlwind mishmash of nonsense to keep the ADHD brain going. And yeah, I get that this wasn't everyone's thing, but what I'm hearing a lot in this thread is that we can all agree there's not a single job in this game now that satisfies this niche for the dedicated Monk players there are out there. I think it's actually more egregious, more criminal that they didn't replace positionals with something as or more busy than anything else, and I get that vibe from a lot of other monks.

There's a lot of me that nods in agreement that a crucial part of the identity of this job feels missing. I can't quite vocalize it other than 'chaos'. I cannot emphasize enough I think this could be resolved in a number of ways that are not just restoring the positionals. If they were to do anything that makes me have to do something besides the basic rotation I've been doing since Titan Hard Mode was relevant endgame content, but minus the positionals, I would find Monk's current iteration far more fun and enjoyable in the downtime between your Blitzes and RoF/Brotherhood windows.

But failing all this, yeah, I think adding the positionals back would be an improvement, only because of how stale the current gameplay loop feels at times.

But this is also highly subjective, and perhaps the rising amount of Monk players(because the job does the sick nasty deeps, yo, let's keep it real, that's honestly probably the main draw right now,) will be the data that speaks louder than the threads.

Or maybe they'll get it right on the 18th Monk rework?

THIS is a real post. Not negative...indifferent...on point. This is the stop gap post I echo, but lack the eloquence to type.

Cheers.

[Sqwall]

We get the argument of, you don't like Monk? Play something else? What exactly? Nothing has loads of positionals, there is nothing else. If you didn't like positionals, you would have 4 melee to choose from compared to our 1 choice in Monk.

The side that presents positionals as a positive for the job have always come back with arguments about how they make a job more engaging, pointing out the hypocrisy from other others and all we get in return is not a discussion, it is more of a tough balls, I do not care. I even encouraged the conversation in post 86 essentially pleading, tell me why you do not like them, let me understand, but they have not responded to it. Would I have criticised their points? Of course, but that is what I want, feel free to criticise me as well, I am not afraid of what someone has to say or having my mind changed, but so far, no arguments have been compelling enough to change it.

I would say this if while you're open minded.

For years I have dealt with the 6 positionals for mediocre potency increase....fine. I'll do them but I think they are needless, but that's the way the job plays. I deal with them.

For years I have been told I needed to play some other job and leave monk to the "elite few that can master it".

Current iteration everything has flipped. Now I don't have to deal with 6 postionals but only 2! And I still get the benefit of potency increase without moving around which just felt needless.
And also those that told me to play something else now hate the new monk...yet I can now enjoy it. While also NUMEROUS others now enjoy it, and the crazy deeps it brings.

Six weeks of unraveling muscle memory, new opener, new loop, everything. For me this was great and I was ok with all of it. Is it a little slow during the lull' between blitzs...sure. Do I care...not in the slightest.

But NOW those that say the positionals never hurt anything in the first place still continue to do them out of bordem. Saying there is nothing wrong with 6 positionals and to put them back in. Yet you still do them.....why? Since it is quite literally POINTLESS to do them now. You say you are bored....so you fill the time with movement while you wait for the next Blitz.

I say they were pointless then and only served little to small amounts of gratification. And now they are gone were they serve NO point now in terms of potency....yet you still do them? THAT is the question I would like answered also. Are you really THAT bored? Honestly speaking.