So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Katt_Felista]

They were probably salty because you got carried through the fight by simply happening to join the right party at the right time. Your low damage and mechanical consistency is very likely a result of sacrificing your rotation/uptime to focus on mechanics, and if everyone in the party played like you, a clear would likely not be mathematically possible. If you haven't optimized a fight to a degree where you're actually pushing your fair share of damage, you haven't really "learned" the fight imo.

For reference, if you're doing 10% tank damage in P3S, you're something like 600+ dps off of what is widely considered to be the minimum expectation for a Tank in p4s. That's a HUGE gap, and unfairly offloads a lot of strain onto other players to make up the difference.

This is kind of bullshit and what you show is the exact "mentality" these third party programs bring to the game, for instance the 10% ranking doesn't mean "u did so bad to the fight" no, it just means that over "all the people that use ACT and loggers in game , you are in the low 10% of the best tanks LOGGED that cleared it" It is a very biased and skewed / idiotic reference to bring about, it does not mean "lol u so bad" either when you compare your peenus only with the top 8% of players that think they are the best for clearing it, it also still means that you are in the lower rank 10% of "best players logged" that down the fight but are just "logging" their fights, you know plenty of people are downing these fights without using these logs and all these tools right ? No i guess when you are used to these you can't fathom this.

It just serves one purpose that you obviously removed from the quote and is the only elitist /gatekeeping reason these exists.

[Michieltjuhh]

In XIV it's VERY obvious when a tank or a healer is underperforming. It becomes more difficult for the co-healer to heal if the other healer is lacking, the tank takes way more damage when they aren't mitigating properly and you can feel that difference as both a healer and a co-tank. HPS is something we don't need a parser to tell -- we can just see and feel the effects of poor HPS. And yet we don't attack tanks or healers for not performing well (at least, not in general). We either carry them through and complain about it in TalesFromDF or something, or we just grin and bear it because the ToS scares us into not saying anything (or maybe we just don't WANT to say anything). I'm not sure why the community would go from passive aggressive at worst, grin and bear it at best to rampaging elitists the moment DPS can actually be tracked. We don't hold bad tanks and bad healers accountable, so why would we suddenly hold bad DPS accountable?

If you've ever raided Savage, you'd know that's only them failing at a tiny part of their actual job. Their actual job is also to DPS, I'm afraid to say. This game doesn't really have roles. Everyone's a DPS, while healers get an extra minigame that requires them to press healing buttons every now and then while minimizing dps loss and tanks get an extra minigame of having to press mitigation every now and then for mechanics specifically made for them.

And you can't easily find out whether or not tanks/healers are doing bad at their actual job. My first P3S clear on my alt in week 2 (after multiple 1-2% enrages week 1 due to low DPS) was with a warrior who was incredible at positioning the boss and mechanics in general. He also logged 0% on damage. We killed the boss 2 seconds before enrage, no thanks to him, even if his good positioning surely helped the melee deal a bit more.

[LittleImp]

I cant say anything about P4S since I havent done it, but it just feels silly and childish to pin all the blame on a single person when its like you said a group effort.

Let's make a hypothetical scenario here.

8 people have to deal 2.5k each to meet a minimum requirement of 20k.

7 people deal 2.6k, 1 person deals 1.7k, preventing the group from achieving the minimum requirement. This may go on for hours at a time, maybe even days, or weeks.

While trying to find a solution to this problem, is it more 'fair' to ask the people who are doing 2.6k to work even harder, or to ask the person doing 1.7k to improve or leave?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Let's make a hypothetical scenario here.

8 people have to deal 2.5k each to meet a minimum requirement of 20k.

7 people deal 2.6k, 1 person deals 1.7k, preventing the group from achieving the minimum requirement. This may go on for hours at a time, maybe even days, or weeks.

While trying to find a solution to this problem, is it more 'fair' to ask the people who are doing 2.6k to work even harder, or to ask the person doing 1.7k to improve or leave?

Better question is, if this "hypothetical scenario" is the be all end all scenario required for P4S. As in, the fight is completely designed for only the most optimal jobs only, for the most optimal players to do their perfect rotations. If not then this scenario is entirely pointless.

[Michieltjuhh]

This is kind of bullshit and what you show is the exact "mentality" these third party programs bring to the game, for instance the 10% ranking doesn't mean "u did so bad to the fight" no, it just means that over "all the people that use ACT and loggers in game , you are in the low 10% of the best tanks LOGGED that cleared it" It is a very biased and skewed / idiotic reference to bring about, it does not mean "lol u so bad" either when you compare your peenus only with the top 8% of players that think they are the best for clearing it, it also still means that you are in the lower rank 10% of "best players logged" that down the fight but are just "logging" their fights, you know plenty of people are downing these fights without using these logs and all these tools right ? No i guess when you are used to these you can't fathom this.

It just serves one purpose that you obviously removed from the quote and is the only elitist /gatekeeping reason these exists.

No, it really isn't "bullshit", he's speaking the simple unfortunate truth. You, by your own statement, underperformed when it comes to playing your job, but did mechanics as correctly as you had to. If the entire raid was filled with players such as yourself, who underperformed on playing their job but did mechanics correctly, you would be in an unending loop of hitting enrage until you outgear the fight to an extent that the mistakes in rotation don't lead to enough of a DPS loss to fail making the DPS check. And I can tell you, that's not in week 1, 2 or 3.

That isn't to say the people in your (ex?)-static sound like absolute pricks, though. People who perform well at their job at the cost of doing fight mechanics are a lot worse to deal with than those who simply lost uptime to focus on mechanics. Even more so if they're arrogant.

[Amon-ster]

If you've ever raided Savage, you'd know that's only them failing at a tiny part of their actual job. Their actual job is also to DPS, I'm afraid to say. This game doesn't really have roles. Everyone's a DPS, while healers get an extra minigame that requires them to press healing buttons every now and then while minimizing dps loss and tanks get an extra minigame of having to press mitigation every now and then for mechanics specifically made for them.

And you can't easily find out whether or not tanks/healers are doing bad at their actual job. My first P3S clear on my alt in week 2 (after multiple 1-2% enrages week 1 due to low DPS) was with a warrior who was incredible at positioning the boss and mechanics in general. He also logged 0% on damage. We killed the boss 2 seconds before enrage, no thanks to him, even if his good positioning surely helped the melee deal a bit more.

Yeah I know that everyone turns into a DPS at the end of the day, especially in Savage, but things like positioning and healing output and whatnot are STILL failure metrics that we can see and measure without the need of external tools. In WoW, if the tank positions poorly they'd get flamed. In XIV, they don't. If someone says anything, it's usually just a "Hey man, can you do X this run? I'd appreciate it." I think the ToS and general vibe of the community are sufficient enough to ensure that we don't see "toxic" behavior at large.

[Michieltjuhh]

Better question is, if this "hypothetical scenario" is the be all end all scenario required for P4S. As in, the fight is completely designed for only the most optimal jobs only, for the most optimal players to do their perfect rotations. If not then this scenario is entirely pointless.

It is quite tight, until people start outgearing fights. Even in P3S the damage check was quite tight in the first couple of weeks. The patch certainly made things more lenient, but a lot of people don't want to - and shouldn't have to - wait for major buffs and gear increases, just because PF is full of players who don't want to play properly but still want to get kills.

[Amon-ster]

Better question is, if this "hypothetical scenario" is the be all end all scenario required for P4S. As in, the fight is completely designed for only the most optimal jobs only, for the most optimal players to do their perfect rotations. If not then this scenario is entirely pointless.

Not exactly. See in this hypothetical situation, 2.5k DPS isn't even high. It's like, average at best. The person doing 1.7k is just doing TERRIBLE. XIV fights aren't designed for optimal top DPS gamers. They're just made for people who actually know what they're doing. And sadly, the game as a whole doesn't really teach you how to play.

[LittleImp]

This is kind of bullshit and what you show is the exact "mentality" these third party programs bring to the game, for instance the 10% ranking doesn't mean "u did so bad to the fight" no, it just means that over "all the people that use ACT and loggers in game , you are in the low 10% of the best tanks LOGGED that cleared it" It is a very biased and skewed / idiotic reference to bring about, it does not mean "lol u so bad" either when you compare your peenus only with the top 8% of players that think they are the best for clearing it, it also still means that you are in the lower rank 10% of "best players logged" that down the fight but are just "logging" their fights, you know plenty of people are downing these fights without using these logs and all these tools right ? No i guess when you are used to these you can't fathom this.

It just serves one purpose that you obviously removed from the quote and is the only elitist /gatekeeping reason these exists.

No, it quite literally means that you're underperforming in comparison to the bulk of kills. Believe it or not, a huge proportion of kills are actually logged, likely well more than 50%. You can easily observe this for yourself, as it's EXTREMELY rare while pugging that someone else does not end up uploading a log. The idea that logs only represent the top 8% of players is amusing and totally untrue. We're also able to look at the max HP of a boss, and based on job sims and collected data we're able to roughly determine what the expected minimum proportion of damage expected from a given role / job is, no rankings necessary. That 9/10% puts someone well below that mark in most encounters, particularly if it's 9/10% in a previous encounter.

The game itself gatekeeps you by creating enrages and gear requirements. Players have to be selective to ensure their success, particularly this early in the tier. It's simply the nature of the game, and the easiest way to not worry about it is to just become as proficient as you can.

[Michieltjuhh]

Yeah I know that everyone turns into a DPS at the end of the day, especially in Savage, but things like positioning and healing output and whatnot are STILL failure metrics that we can see and measure without the need of external tools. In WoW, if the tank positions poorly they'd get flamed. In XIV, they don't. If someone says anything, it's usually just a "Hey man, can you do X this run? I'd appreciate it." I think the ToS and general vibe of the community are sufficient enough to ensure that we don't see "toxic" behavior at large.

Sure, but in WoW the regulation is literally nonexistent. What's stopping FF14 from having a damage meter implemented in the game so people actually KNOW they're not playing well, while still regulating it, albeit to a less extreme but still very reasonable extent? After all, ACT isn't what shows you the tank is positioning the boss wrong, the game itself does that, and yet people aren't using this information to be toxic either.