Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[aveyond-dreams]

Everything you wrote in this post rings especially hollow in light of you declaring you would not accept the return of a single DOT to the job and would return to Black Mage, a job with a DOT you regularly need to reapply.

Nobody has to accept anything they don't like, and they certainly don't need approval from the likes of you to express their displeasure at something.

Casting Thunder on Black Mage isn't something that takes away from the job or comprises its identity. It's definitely not the main thing going on in the job and it has consistently had good flow to it since day 1 of ARR. Thunder has been a spell since the first Final Fantasy game. It is far more relevant to have Fire/Ice/Thunder magic on Black Mage than it is to have poison mage style gameplay on Summoner.

Summoner doesn't need busywork from dots especially if they have 0 to do with the summons that have largely been absent for the past 8 years. An ogcd like Sonic Break from GNB where Ramuh/Leviathan shows up and does an attack with a dot that doesn't take away my attention from the other stuff I'm doing would be a welcome addition, as opposed to irrelevant spells like Bio or Miasma. We need more *Summoner* stuff added not the old Warlock abilities they already threw out.

The confusion of its identity brought on by the poison mage aspect is intrinsically linked to its previous gameplay and theme issues. Since dots didn't make for particularly engaging gameplay they ended up throwing in systems stacked on top of each other to add in more and more busywork. That road led to nowhere.

If you want to bring that back onto Summoner, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want to see it surface in a new job, continuing to argue with me is doing nothing to further your cause and only casts more negative light on a side that isn't viewed highly outside of its own bubble to begin with. The logical solutions have been presented to you and you can either accept them or continue to face resistance from the opposing viewpoint.

[tearagion]

You argue in such bad faith with every post it's actually kind of hard to believe. You don't say a single defensible thing in that whole post and it would be frankly exhausting to list the issues.

[aveyond-dreams]

What I have told you is the reality and history of the job. If you want Warlock, then by all means create the support thread for it instead of trying to drag Summoner back in a direction that whoever is in charge doesn't find viable anymore. While unproductive for the side of poison mage fans, I continue to look on in wonder at their reactions whenever the truth is laid bare before them.

More summons and abilities will come at whatever pace is manageable. The thematic crisis has been resolved and is unlikely to ever be compromised again moving forward. Heavensward style gameplay is not on the table, unless they have plans to release a Classic ARR or Heavensward server in the future. You are well within your rights to continue acting in your present way right up until the day of 6.1 release if you wish. I do not think it is a healthy or effective method to get what you want though.

The picture you yourselves paint of poison mage/"complexity!" lovers is not the one you think it is. Given the choice, I cannot say with any certainty that an onlooker would be swayed by their current approach.

[VentVanitas]

What I have told you is the reality and history of the job. If you want Warlock, then by all means create the support thread for it instead of trying to drag Summoner back in a direction that whoever is in charge doesn't find viable anymore. While unproductive for the side of poison mage fans, I continue to look on in wonder at their reactions whenever the truth is laid bare before them.

[Dyvid]

What I have told you is the reality and history of the job. If you want Warlock, then by all means create the support thread for it instead of trying to drag Summoner back in a direction that whoever is in charge doesn't find viable anymore. While unproductive for the side of poison mage fans, I continue to look on in wonder at their reactions whenever the truth is laid bare before them.

More summons and abilities will come at whatever pace is manageable. The thematic crisis has been resolved and is unlikely to ever be compromised again moving forward. Heavensward style gameplay is not on the table, unless they have plans to release a Classic ARR or Heavensward server in the future. You are well within your rights to continue acting in your present way right up until the day of 6.1 release if you wish. I do not think it is a healthy or effective method to get what you want though.

The picture you yourselves paint of poison mage/"complexity!" lovers is not the one you think it is. Given the choice, I cannot say with any certainty that an onlooker would be swayed by their current approach.

Your main job still shows Black Mage, might want to see to that.

[aveyond-dreams]

And your main job is Blacksmith? People often display their alts on here instead of their mains for obvious reasons. Given the way in which some of these individuals act, the last thing I'm willing to part with is my privacy in-game. How a group that claims to be victims due to the rework then proceeds decides to act in such a hostile way is beyond me. Was gaining sympathy not the objective?

[Coletergeist]

You keep bringing up the whole "poison" and DoT thing, but from my understanding, folks are just wanting more - or simply different - than we got. This doesn't mean to go strictly back to what it formerly was. SMN as is currently is, is so simple and boring compared to what it used to be - and seeing the 3 summons being summoned over...and over...and over again makes my brain hurt and is way too repetitive.

You say 'I dont think it's a healthy or effective method to get what you want though' - are you sure? Like, I don't even understand why that was said. What is unhealthy about asking or simply just venting frustrations over the new SMN and for good reason? I mean, there has to be a reason there's multiple threads over the subject.

[Dyvid]

And your main job is Blacksmith? People often display their alts on here instead of their mains for obvious reasons. Given the way in which some of these individuals act, the last thing I'm willing to part with is my privacy in-game. How a group that claims to be victims due to the rework then proceeds decides to act in such a hostile way is beyond me. Was gaining sympathy not the objective?

Yea, I main a blacksmith because SMN is dead to me, and I don't have another main job now. Point is though if you are to post on each and every SMN post that is made you should make the effort to walk the walk, even if it is your alt. It's not hard to unlock SMN and change your forums main. In fact it should be a treat since you love it's game play.

Not to burst your bubble but people aren't going to follow you in game to harass you because of a forum post. I've been doing this for 11 years now and haven't meet one person who wanted to talk in game about something I posted on this site. You're not a victim you're not oppressed because you have an opposing view. It's called debating, not hostile attacks.

Second, if the job is so stellar you should have to defend it at all because it should be able to stand on its own merit rather than the merit people try to assign it.

Lastly, people are annoyed that you don't bring anything relevant to the discussion. We are trying to have a debate, sometimes heated, about this current build of Summoner you kept bringing up Poison Mage like it's 2013. You tell everyone to get over it but your are still stuck on it. Fine, you don't like Miasma or Bio. Believe me, we all know. The thread is about the job feeling dumb down and removing two spells isn't the heart of the problem. And for the love of all if you so much as mention Poison Mage to your reply I will just /blist you here and now.

[aveyond-dreams]

You keep bringing up the whole "poison" and DoT thing, but from my understanding, folks are just wanting more - or simply different - than we got. This doesn't mean to go strictly back to what it formerly was. SMN as is currently is, is so simple and boring compared to what it used to be - and seeing the 3 summons being summoned over...and over...and over again makes my brain hurt and is way too repetitive. All we're asking for, is something a bit more (or different) than what we got.

You say 'I dont think it's a healthy or effective method to get what you want though' - are you sure? Like, I don't even understand why that was said. What is unhealthy about asking or simply just venting frustrations over the new SMN and for good reason? I mean, there has to be a reason there's multiple threads over the subject.

I will be the first person to agree loud and clear that we need more than the same trio of Ifrit/Garuda/Titan-there should absolutely be more variety in our roster. Given how in FFXI I can get most of my summons by level 20, it sucks that we are somehow still so far behind in FFXIV. That being said, chain summoning things practically back to back is the main draw of the job. That's how Summoners work when its not the case of having pets stay out for longer periods of time like FFX/FFXI.

Let me now say that I do not subscribe to the doom and gloom mentality some are having of "the rework has ruined the job forever and no one is listening to us and it will never be fixed" which seems to only exist on the forums. The only reason we're seeing multiple threads here is because this is the sole bastion where such opinions are protected behind a set of rules. It's definitely not the case beyond this sanctuary, and I will not speak as to how those discussions turned out. Could there be more? Of course. Is the current attitude and behavior some are displaying going to make them work any faster? No, seeing as how ability changes will not come until 6.1 at the earliest.

The job has changed. Summoner in fact has changed quite a lot every single expansion, with the experience I had with the class in Shadowbringers being so bad I dropped it like a hot potato and ran away to Red Mage and Black Mage. I was definitely upset for a bit, but I got over it. There are some around here who seem stuck in a rage and are unable to express themselves appropriately, or who want past mechanics that the rework's goal was expressly to get rid of. The result was a job that displaced Red Mage as the most popular caster everywhere except JP, which is also not a particularly complex class. If Red Mage level gameplay is a happy medium, I can see them aiming for that in the future.

I've watched this fire burning for quite a while, and so long as they choose to be as negative as they are then I choose to present a direct counter. Summoner is great. I'm excited to see what they add to it. It's a love letter to what it is traditionally as opposed to how out of place it used to be. As a longtime FF vet I simply cannot be deceived by arguments like "Rydia had Bio so they should add it back in" when as a Summoner the last thing that should be on my mind is juggling poison magic that doesn't mesh with the rest of the kit at all. This isn't even beginning touch on the other systems Summoner was plagued with-it was all just so wrong. They've painted themselves into a corner here, though they could free themselves from their problems really easily by just trying out new stuff like I did.

The refusal to acknowledge the job's history in the franchise, the aggressiveness, the near-constant put downs because Summoner is clearly no longer "elite" enough for them when no class should be exclusive to elites in the first place, just makes for a crowd I really have no interest in dealing with in game. The only remaining legacy of poison mage Summoner is a very negative attitude some actively choose to cling to instead of acting maturely. They will not be the sole voice in this conversation.

[Insertusernamehere]

I am not going to say anything about new SMN. But I don't expect anything new for SMN within 4-5 years (other than potency updates)..
SE will add or upgrade 1-2 existing skills in next expansion and its all about it.
If you like current state of SMN great! it will stay like this very long time.. I think SE wont sink anymore time and money for this job after rework, it is what happened after MCH and DRK rework.

It is just my personal observation :3