Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Dahlinea]

I remember when ShB was released and there were lots of problems with SMN. Things like the doubleweaving of pet actions and their responsiveness and Bahamut/Phoenix not triggering their skills during the summon process (solved for Bahamut but not for Phoenix).
Some discussions took place here in the english forum at that time and suggestions to make SMN better were made. For instance, the possibility of merging DWT with Summon Bahamut, having "free" Ruin IV's during Bahamut phase (to ease the problems with doubleweaving pet actions and they not executing leading to less stacks of Ruin IV) and making summons stay put where they were summoned. In the end, they changed pet actions to GCD and it solved quite a lot of problems actually.
However, we can see that those previous suggestions were, more or less, implemented now (guess similar discussions happened in other forums too), but these changes also ultimately changed how SMN works mechanically and, the way I see it, were not addressed properly. We have now a job that is aesthetically good but at the same time bland with no inherent mechanics.

- Aetherflow/Fester is a completely disjoint part of the kit now that the DoTs are gone. (Before we at least had the link Summon Phoenix/DWT > Tri-disaster reset > DoT Refresh > Aetherflow > buffed Fester by DoTs)

- Titan/Ifrit/Garuda still plays as filler phase with the same weight as casting Ruin III/Pet actions in the 5.x SMN, but less meaningful. They are not required for any of the burst phases, they contribute nothing to them.

- They made Bahamut and Phoenix become like a DoT with their skill being automatic. (Making them just stay in place when summoned would solve the problem of them trying to follow us and cancelling attacks, imo.)
Would like to see Summon Bahamut/Phoenix also trigger Ahk Morn/Revelation on spot, now that they are GCD. But that's just a personal wish.

- Pet is still a thing with only two abilites linked to it. (It's past time to remove pets completely as a source of abilities, if it's going to be like this. Give those abilites to the SMNs themselves and make Carbunble just a glamour effect that can be turned on and off if the player desires. I don't know, maybe you open the book it spawns, changes colors depending on the attunement phase and do some animations when you "cast" spells. Purely comestic.)


The thing is that SMN needs adjusments, needs more oGCDs (to keep us more active) and need actual job mechanics.

[einschwartz]

I don't have anything much to add since I use SCH more than SMN, but I will say that the job doesn't even feel like a caster now that half of the skills are instant cast.

[MellowMink]

If there’s still going to be a continued discussion in this thread, can certain people please stop saying that somebody’s subjective gameplay preferences are wrong or that someone has to be trolling solely because the somebody in question happens to prefer the newer job design to the older job design? It’s pretty rude, and I doubt that Square Enix is as likely to take the contents of this thread seriously when it contains what some could see as the appearance of continued harassment.

Preferring the newer job design doesn’t automatically mean that there still aren’t rooms for improvement as well either; I’d like to see Ruin IV considered as being changed into an ability so that it can be weaved with other spells for instance, as one friendly proposal of the top of my head. The current job isn’t perfect even if I do personally (subjectively) prefer it to its previous form.

Sharing this again because it’s still relevant to this thread. There have been multiple people in said thread who personally prefer the newer job design yet have been criticized for simply explaining a subjective preference or describing spell differences, with them sometimes being called trolls, having their past experience with the job called into question, or being insulted in other ways. Many game discussions often involve multiple perspectives, and that’s fine as long as there are no appearances of harassment.

Some popular content creators like Larryzaur have also stated that (and went on to explain why) they prefer the newer summoner design to the older design; is Larryzaur also wrong?

As someone who prefers the newer job design to the older job design, I also previously noted in this thread multiple areas where each of the newer spells technically differed, but I also mentioned other improvements that I would like to see; I’m not opposed to newer updates.

One of those things was that I felt that the level 86 elemental trait (that introduces what I feel are the most significant factors in terms of deciding elemental usage order) should be swapped around with some lower-level trait, since I’m not personally a fan of limiting those major spells and abilities to the newest content.

Another thing is that being able to cast the attack buff when you’re not in the middle of battle should be a thing again, since you can’t currently have it prepared right before a raid boss is initially pulled.

All that said, I think it’s totally fine if other people on these forums have other suggestions or even major dislikes too as long as they’re shared respectfully.

Sharing this again as well so that people again see that I’m not against the job getting further updates, also including some personal preferences; I don’t want that to be ignored.

But yeah, certain posts being rude isn’t going to help forum feedback be taken more seriously; it’ll more likely just be ignored then.

[Dyvid]

Some popular content creators like Larryzaur have also stated that (and went on to explain why) they prefer the newer summoner design to the older design; is Larryzaur also wrong?

Can Larry have an opinion, yes he can. Can Larry also be wrong, yes he can. Being a content creator doesn't mean you give them a free pass when you feel they are wrong about something. Larry has made a gushing video about summoner with every patch. He loves the identity of Summoner. Honestly, I have no idea how he truly feels about 6.0 summoner because I don't know if he posts on the main boards or not. Maybe it's better if he does post with an alt so people can have an honest debate without letting youtube stardom get in the way.

These are the forums; we discuss and debate until we find common ground a mutual path forward. I've had many debates with lead Summoners on these boards and have seen many good ideas come from it over the years.

After reading a lot of the feedback from the forums, the general consensus is that while main like the new changes some feel it is lacking in mechanics and over all depth. Others feel it took too much away from the previous version of the job when it didn't really need too. We feel that though the job changes have merit they didn't address some problems 5.0 had and created new one.

[Auryan]

Can Larry have an opinion, yes he can. Can Larry also be wrong, yes he can. Being a content creator doesn't mean you give them a free pass when you feel they are wrong about something. Larry has made a gushing video about summoner with every patch. He loves the identity of Summoner. Honestly, I have no idea how he truly feels about 6.0 summoner because I don't know if he posts on the main boards or not. Maybe it's better if he does post with an alt so people can have an honest debate without letting youtube stardom get in the way.

How is he wrong about SMN? He just likes and prefers this version to the prior ones. Furthermore, he was vocal of his dislike for ShB's version in many conversations when the job was brought up. So...he's pretty up front about his feelings towards the job and it's pretty safe to say that he genuinely enjoys this iteration over the pre-6.0 ones.

[zcrash970]

How is he wrong about SMN? He just likes and prefers this version to the prior ones. Furthermore, he was vocal of his dislike for ShB's version in many conversations when the job was brought up. So...he's pretty up front about his feelings towards the job and it's pretty safe to say that he genuinely enjoys this iteration over the pre-6.0 ones.

Well saying that we are casting different spells more often was wrong....
He's allowed to have an opinion but honestly I can't think of one time when he actively critique the game. He kinda fan-gasm over everything

[Auryan]

Well saying that we are casting different spells more often was wrong....
He's allowed to have an opinion but honestly I can't think of one time when he actively critique the game. He kinda fan-gasm over everything

His content is more light-hearted and jokey than offering critiques. Except for 5.x SMN, which he openly disliked.
Still, I'm sure he'd be happy to offer sensible feedback for the new SMN direction the same way Momo would for healers.

[IruruCece]

But yeah, certain posts being rude isn’t going to help forum feedback be taken more seriously; it’ll more likely just be ignored then.

This ignores the fact that at least one specific participant in this thread has been "I like the new updates, and YOU PEOPLE without READING COMPREHENSION should just GET OVER IT." If they bring smoke despite not liking it when it gets thrown back in their face, maybe they ought to frame their arguments from that angle instead of being a disingenuous stain about it, crowing about how they got what they want and other players who have countered their statements in every thread they word-vomit into with reasonable and detailed arguments can just "suck it up", or that those people should "stop whining" while also shrieking about how if anything changes to current SMN they'll drop the job immediately.

People have been offering polite feedback on these forums for years and the vast majority of it has been roundly ignored. Frustration should be expected, and it's not made better when some smug jackass crashes into every discussion with a self-declared goal to be the "voice of opposition" in any thread criticizing the new direction of the job.

[aveyond-dreams]

...

I mean if I see Summoner change for the worse by adding in old stuff that whoever is in charge already threw out, then yeah I'll switch over to something else. It's healthy to have backup classes. You must have also missed the part where I said I'm not opposed to meaningful additions, as in, give us new summons or summon-themed ogcds. Not busywork from old SMN.

Ask yourself this, if you are actually serious about getting your point across to the team in charge of Summoner how do you expect them to prioritize the wants of an objectively smaller crowd who was extremely attached to a design many found convoluted that they already decided to shut down? Warlock Summoner and its bloated systems have gone the way of old AST's cards. The reasoning behind both removals was already made clear, so you can choose between being patient and enjoying what we have now or continuing to act in your present manner.

Do you think I wasn't somewhat frustrated that at level 90 we still don't have Ramuh/Levi/Shiva? The difference here is that I'm aware that just shouting at them or saying "I'm bored!" a hundred times over isn't going to speed them along. Let's just be clear that the old gameplay *needed* to change because when enough individuals are collectively going "this job is a disaster" then it's probably because something has seriously gone wrong.

The optics you're giving aren't conducive to any meaningful progress. I've been around for nearly every controversy this game has seen. Eureka, Viera/Hrothgar, so on. The main thing the eventual winners of those situations had in common was strength of numbers and a shared experience so widespread that it necessitated drastic correction. The result was the improvements and accessibility changes manifesting in Bozja, and the resulting updates to those two races, etc. As for here, you have 10 times as many people enjoying themselves in game with new SMN as you do people who are still complaining about the loss of the old version. Combine a complete lack of support for this cause and an overwhelmingly negative attitude and you've just made gaining sympathy all but impossible.

If you want to carry on like this until March/April by all means do so. It would be more productive for those who want to see the old gameplay make a comeback in another job-which is now the only suitable place for it- make a support thread for one. Summoner will improve as patches come but it is time to be realistic about what you can expect. As I've said before, Red Mage is most people's happy place so we can probably see it evolve towards that direction as opposed to the old "complex!" caster.

[IruruCece]

I mean if I see Summoner change for the worse by adding in old stuff that whoever is in charge already threw out, then yeah I'll switch over to something else.

Then let's hope for the best, shall we?

The reasoning behind both removals was already made clear, so you can choose between being patient and enjoying what we have now or continuing to act in your present manner.

I think I will continue to question changes to the game that I don't like, and you can marinate on that for a while. If you're going to play the card that the devs won't listen to feedback if they perceive it to be rude, I'll remind you they weren't listening to it before now, which is why the job's changes prioritize arbitrary "class fantasy" over actually confronting the mechanical issues the job has faced over years. The same has happened to other jobs.

The optics you're giving aren't conducive to any meaningful progress...

Combine a complete lack of support for this cause and an overwhelmingly negative attitude and you've just made gaining sympathy all but impossible.

You've offered neither sympathy nor optics "conducive to any meaningful progress", across multiple threads. There were posts from multiple players in the previous page that were earnest attempts to try and engage in conversation discussing the changes to the job on a mechanical and gameplay level, and you ignored them all. I wonder why that is?