Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Shuuli]

Sharing this again because it’s still relevant to this thread. There have been multiple people in said thread who personally prefer the newer job design yet have been criticized for simply explaining a subjective preference or describing spell differences, with them sometimes being called trolls, having their past experience with the job called into question, or being insulted in other ways. Many game discussions often involve multiple perspectives, and that’s fine as long as there are no appearances of harassment.

Some popular content creators like Larryzaur have also stated that (and went on to explain why) they prefer the newer summoner design to the older design; is Larryzaur also wrong?


Sharing this again as well so that people again see that I’m not against the job getting further updates, also including some personal preferences; I don’t want that to be ignored.

But yeah, certain posts being rude isn’t going to help forum feedback be taken more seriously; it’ll more likely just be ignored then.

I personally don't like new summoner, said it a couple of times on this and many other forum posts. I play it now, because I geared it up to 589, so I feel it to be a waste not to.
Me not liking the new summoner does not mean that another streamer/ youtuber who likes it is wrong.
These are just differing opinions.
I can point out what I find as an issue with the job, just like he can point out what he likes about it, and the two thing might not even be crossing ideas. Maybe I like the same things he likes and maybe he hates the same thing I hate, but he pointed out in his video specifically what he liked. He said he likes the summones, he "feels" it is a summoner and he likes the rotation. (I think this was his first video trying out the job, when he played it for like 1 hour on the media tour...)
And what he said is nice, it DOES look good, it does feel good to summon big baddy summons (but I can tell you that if you do savage raiding, putting the summons to min size actually makes more sense), and the rotation is indeed much faster and feels more like some of the other classes.

But that does not mean that people pointing out issues are trying to be mean to him.

I just personally want fixes to Ifrit phase. Feels to wonky. Maybe some dps buff and I would be happy.

[aveyond-dreams]

...

I mean if I see Summoner change for the worse by adding in old stuff that whoever is in charge already threw out, then yeah I'll switch over to something else. It's healthy to have backup classes. You must have also missed the part where I said I'm not opposed to meaningful additions, as in, give us new summons or summon-themed ogcds. Not busywork from old SMN.

Ask yourself this, if you are actually serious about getting your point across to the team in charge of Summoner how do you expect them to prioritize the wants of an objectively smaller crowd who was extremely attached to a design many found convoluted that they already decided to shut down? Warlock Summoner and its bloated systems have gone the way of old AST's cards. The reasoning behind both removals was already made clear, so you can choose between being patient and enjoying what we have now or continuing to act in your present manner.

Do you think I wasn't somewhat frustrated that at level 90 we still don't have Ramuh/Levi/Shiva? The difference here is that I'm aware that just shouting at them or saying "I'm bored!" a hundred times over isn't going to speed them along. Let's just be clear that the old gameplay *needed* to change because when enough individuals are collectively going "this job is a disaster" then it's probably because something has seriously gone wrong.

The optics you're giving aren't conducive to any meaningful progress. I've been around for nearly every controversy this game has seen. Eureka, Viera/Hrothgar, so on. The main thing the eventual winners of those situations had in common was strength of numbers and a shared experience so widespread that it necessitated drastic correction. The result was the improvements and accessibility changes manifesting in Bozja, and the resulting updates to those two races, etc. As for here, you have 10 times as many people enjoying themselves in game with new SMN as you do people who are still complaining about the loss of the old version. Combine a complete lack of support for this cause and an overwhelmingly negative attitude and you've just made gaining sympathy all but impossible.

If you want to carry on like this until March/April by all means do so. It would be more productive for those who want to see the old gameplay make a comeback in another job-which is now the only suitable place for it- make a support thread for one. Summoner will improve as patches come but it is time to be realistic about what you can expect. As I've said before, Red Mage is most people's happy place so we can probably see it evolve towards that direction as opposed to the old "complex!" caster.

[Auryan]

Can Larry have an opinion, yes he can. Can Larry also be wrong, yes he can. Being a content creator doesn't mean you give them a free pass when you feel they are wrong about something. Larry has made a gushing video about summoner with every patch. He loves the identity of Summoner. Honestly, I have no idea how he truly feels about 6.0 summoner because I don't know if he posts on the main boards or not. Maybe it's better if he does post with an alt so people can have an honest debate without letting youtube stardom get in the way.

How is he wrong about SMN? He just likes and prefers this version to the prior ones. Furthermore, he was vocal of his dislike for ShB's version in many conversations when the job was brought up. So...he's pretty up front about his feelings towards the job and it's pretty safe to say that he genuinely enjoys this iteration over the pre-6.0 ones.

[IruruCece]

I mean if I see Summoner change for the worse by adding in old stuff that whoever is in charge already threw out, then yeah I'll switch over to something else.

Then let's hope for the best, shall we?

The reasoning behind both removals was already made clear, so you can choose between being patient and enjoying what we have now or continuing to act in your present manner.

I think I will continue to question changes to the game that I don't like, and you can marinate on that for a while. If you're going to play the card that the devs won't listen to feedback if they perceive it to be rude, I'll remind you they weren't listening to it before now, which is why the job's changes prioritize arbitrary "class fantasy" over actually confronting the mechanical issues the job has faced over years. The same has happened to other jobs.

The optics you're giving aren't conducive to any meaningful progress...

Combine a complete lack of support for this cause and an overwhelmingly negative attitude and you've just made gaining sympathy all but impossible.

You've offered neither sympathy nor optics "conducive to any meaningful progress", across multiple threads. There were posts from multiple players in the previous page that were earnest attempts to try and engage in conversation discussing the changes to the job on a mechanical and gameplay level, and you ignored them all. I wonder why that is?

[zcrash970]

How is he wrong about SMN? He just likes and prefers this version to the prior ones. Furthermore, he was vocal of his dislike for ShB's version in many conversations when the job was brought up. So...he's pretty up front about his feelings towards the job and it's pretty safe to say that he genuinely enjoys this iteration over the pre-6.0 ones.

Well saying that we are casting different spells more often was wrong....
He's allowed to have an opinion but honestly I can't think of one time when he actively critique the game. He kinda fan-gasm over everything

[Auryan]

Well saying that we are casting different spells more often was wrong....
He's allowed to have an opinion but honestly I can't think of one time when he actively critique the game. He kinda fan-gasm over everything

His content is more light-hearted and jokey than offering critiques. Except for 5.x SMN, which he openly disliked.
Still, I'm sure he'd be happy to offer sensible feedback for the new SMN direction the same way Momo would for healers.

[Miziliti]

The final version of SB SMN was something I thought Devs would stick with. Even though the complexity is high, it is satisfying. Then comes SHB SMN suddenly slapping pet actions telling me to spam which I pretty much didn't bother past the first few months later.

EW SMN is I have to say a very thematically fitting concept, but it is very lacking in execution. Energy Drain/Siphon feels so out of place and bind it to Ruin IV didn't feel good either. My carbuncle for the most part just act like a miniture stand near the boss looking at me while constantly disappear from time to time and it is just awkward (I had to glam it to Ifrit so I don't see its eyes stare at me). Now the actual pet doesn't have meaning in existence outside of buffs that I need to remind myself to use it before it disappear due to my summons. I hate it. I like the concept of the EW version, but it needs more of everything. More actual spells to cast, more damage, more thoughts to the rotation, and more summons to call/use.

[IruruCece]

It would be nice if the job didn't feel like a level 70 job at level 90.

[zcrash970]

His content is more light-hearted and jokey than offering critiques. Except for 5.x SMN, which he openly disliked.
Still, I'm sure he'd be happy to offer sensible feedback for the new SMN direction the same way Momo would for healers.

Even in podcast, he is very, very rarely negative. The most he ever says is something weirdly design but that's about as negative he gets. I think most of issues he had with 5.x smn was with 5.0 smn where it was awfully designed and worked against the rotation

[MellowMink]

Can Larry have an opinion, yes he can. Can Larry also be wrong, yes he can. Being a content creator doesn't mean you give them a free pass when you feel they are wrong about something.

I never said he was objectively correct, more that I don’t like that some in here refer to players who prefer the newer job design (including popular content creators who exist outside of these forums) as “wrong” rather than having a subjective preference that they personally don’t share; whether a job is fun isn’t something that has an objectively correct answer that makes some people right and others wrong. What I was noticing in this thread were consistently negative and rude responses toward people who subjectively preferred the newer job design, but somebody simply having a preference isn’t the same as them being objectively wrong.

Many people outside of the forums prefer the newer job design while still wanting to see some further improvements, and it’s worth keeping in mind that most players don’t post on the forums; that doesn’t mean that they all prefer the newer job design of course, and it’s possible that the percentage of those people who dislike the newer design is large too, but the forum alone isn’t close to representative of the majority of monthly subscribers. Regardless, actual debate is great and should remain civil so that developers can read through it more easily, since I honestly feel that even just the appearance of harassment feels likelier to make developers who do read the forums ignore certain threads entirely.