Dark Knight Megathread

[Xrison]

Exactly and even on bosses it's trash because soul eater is worse then brutal shell. So even the 123 is shit...at this point I have no idea why this job exists given its state for the last 5 years.

Yep. Brutal Shell is superior in every way. Effectively a 400 potency heal/shield combo without the risk of overhealing. It's really no contest.

[Ryaduera]

This entire post is math in the context of TBN taking a single tankbuster versus HoC taking a single tankbuster. And it is correct, in that on a per-use basis, TBN is generally weaker (ranging from 'marginally' to 'considerably' depending on the specific situation) against tankbusters than the other tanks' equivalent skills. But we aren't having a discussion about TBN vs HoC/HS in the context of tankbusters.

The math that people are failing to provide is the math that shows TBN being less effective in dungeon pulls.

That's because the math for dungeon pulls is significantly more complex. HoC has falloff mitigation, other cooldowns get used creating diminishing returns, GNB/PLD have Parry/Block rates respectively, Abyssal Drain is a heal entirely dependent on the number of targets, And I know from first hand experience PLD Holly Shelltron out performs both TBN and HoC in pulls in every way, but aurora is stacked with GNB effects and overall the math you're asking for is very possible, but honestly far too complex for me to be writing out this kind of math for free, math is already my job, numbers are my language. You don't even need to see the math to experience this, you can see the effects firsthand in dungeons. When I play DRK I feel pathetic defensively and healers feel more pressure when they have to heal DRK over all other tanks. The math you're asking for to disprove the usefulness of TBN exists, but there are so many variables from heal values, number of targets hit, parry rates, block rates, healing crits, enemy attack rates, when those attacks land on the tank, how often short cooldowns are even used (can't always be off cooldown for DRK and PLD), and oh god I could keep going. You're just saying that until someone puts in professional mathematician levels of work to disprove the effectiveness of TBN you will ignore the actual visible results of how poor the ability actually compares due to the kit it is in. Could you imagine how good TBN would be if we still had Dark Dance? The main problem with DRK defensive kit is synergy and coherence.

EDIT: Remember when PLD had stoneskin and you'd just toss it on yourself real quick before pulls and during boss downtime? Stoneskin was very weak compared to TBN, but it was on a tank with a block rate, so it was seen is too strong even when it could only block physical attacks. It was a positive feedback loop and didn't dig into the PLD offensive resource pool unless you were silly enough to use it during damage uptime. TBN deserves that kind of synergy before it can be called comparable to HoC, HS, and Blood Whetting. TBN is an S Tier ability on an D tier tank in defensive terms.

[Shurrikhan]

TBN deserves that kind of synergy before it can be called comparable to HoC, HS, and Blood Whetting.

...Why would a level 70 ability ever amount to a combined level 70 ability plus a massive level 82 bonus?

TBN you will ignore the actual visible results of how poor the ability actually compares due to the kit it is in.

That's not the ability, though. That's the kit. DRK's pre-EW on-demand compares just fine against everyone else's pre-EW on-demand. The problem is that DRK's is a pre-EW kit... with merely Oblation, vs. 3 tanks with actual EW kits. That's not a TBN problem. That's a "Where tf is everything else?" problem.

That being said, the end-result is still that I do fine as a DRK, and when healing DRKs, off just a pre-GCD and oGCDs healing, same as any other tank. Perhaps if we weren't regularly shoveling the idea that TBN is so weak that it's not even worth using in dungeons --as if there was something unique to damage coming from multiple sources that makes a flat shield somehow worth fewer HP-- we'd have fewer DRKs who require GCDs heal spams. That doesn't mean DRK doesn't need an actual EW kit, beyond merely Oblation, but the idea that it's somehow unhealable or catastrophically weak in dungeons is utter bull. Bad DRKs might be, but so are bad GNBs and PLDs.

[Ryaduera]

That's not the ability, though. That's the kit.

*slow clap* Yes, that is what I said. That is exactly what I said. I swear 99% of discussing with you is quoting what I have already said.

The main problem with DRK defensive kit is synergy and coherence.

TBN is an S Tier ability on an D tier tank in defensive terms.

If you're wondering the other 1% is you saying that statements like mine are people saying TBN isn't even worth using. I'm not even sure where that logic comes from. If I had a skill that reduced damage taken by 1% for free, I would still consider it worth using if it didn't take up any resources.

[MagiusNecros]

TBN and LD are just garbage abilities. TBN is just a damage shield to cover up how bad DRK is designed as a Tank. It's a job class designed for masochists that hate themselves.

[Shurrikhan]

*slow clap* Yes, that is what I said. That is exactly what I said. I swear 99% of discussing with you is quoting what I have already said.

Sorry, read your post before the hour-later edit. I hadn't refreshed the page yet.

You quoted a post asking why players say TBN is inherently worse in dungeons than in raids, answering only that 'dungeons are too complicated, so you should instead just trust that DRK requires significantly more healing in dungeons and let that end the matter.' There are two oddities there: First, DRK doesn't require mid-pull GCD healing any more than any other tank, if your DRK and healer are both competent. Second, how can that state remotely indicate TBN's performance... if TBN doesn't have a comparable surrounding kit anyways?

Could you imagine how good TBN would be if we still had Dark Dance?

Exactly as good as before. A 60s CD, 10s duration 20% parry chance --amounting to ~5% physical-only, RNG-driven mitigation-- doesn't have any particular synergy with TBN.

(Of course, neither does block and (Holy) Shelltron; quite the opposite, Shelltron technically wastes PLD's passive block chance, making its active power lower than one would initially expect, and its method of mitigation is entirely bypassed by crits -- not that newer content allows them anymore.)

Stoneskin was very weak compared to TBN, but it was on a tank with a block rate, so it was seen is too strong even when it could only block physical attacks.

No, PLD was seen as the weakest MT, defensively, from 2.1 to the point at which PLD lost Stoneskin. Paladin's access to Stoneskin, meanwhile, was not removed for being OP, but was instead pruned among other "bloat" skills.

If you're wondering the other 1% is you saying that statements like mine are people saying TBN isn't even worth using.

Yours? No. Nor have I said as much.

Others in this thread, such as those who have called it 'literally useless' in AoE? Yes. But that's doesn't require my saying so; that's just their own take on it.

If I had a skill that reduced damage taken by 1% for free, I would still consider it worth using if it didn't take up any resources.

Wait, so now you... are going out of your way to compare TBN to something which "reduces damage taken by 1%"? Why? Even if it lasted only 1 second each cast, you'd still spend 1/15th of the time invincible.

And how is something "free" going to take up resources?

[Ryaduera]

Wait, so now you... are going out of your way to compare TBN to something which "reduces damage taken by 1%"? Why? Even if it lasted only 1 second each cast, you'd still spend 1/15th of the time invincible.

And how is something "free" going to take up resources?

I'm not even going to dignify the other parts with a response and just say if you can't understand that TBN is in fact shit when in an in-cohesive and lacking kit then maybe you shouldn't be trying to defend the ability that is holding DRK back significantly because of its design. If you have a really good ability on a job that can't use that ability well, you have a really bad ability no matter how valuable it is standalone. Holmgang should be the second worst invuln, but it's the best, because it's on Warrior. But this statement... No comparison is being made just a rhetorical point of calling things "not worth using" when an oGCD that doesn't take resources is what "free" means. Just because it's not worth double weaving with other abilities doesn't mean it's not worth using period. jfc I'm defending a hypothetical 1% mit with you now... I don't even... I can't. I literally can't anymore.

[Shurrikhan]

when in an in-cohesive and lacking kit

By that logic, whenever a tank is bad, even if they have at that time the strongest invuln in the game (let's say, Hallowed Ground on a 3 minute cooldown), that invuln must also be bad relative to its competitors.

There's nothing about the surrounding kit that makes it less able to slot TBN. Its kit is weak simply due to Living Dead being bad, Dark Mind being magic-only, and the kit having literally nothing in place of Equilibrium/Aurora/Requiescat heals. That has nothing to do with anti-synergy with barriers. Nor would TBN be stronger in any other kit, such as if it were suddenly swapped with any of the other on-demands.

you shouldn't be trying to defend the ability that is holding DRK back significantly because of its design.

It in no way holds the job back. We couldn't have had an entire Shadowbringers kit short only Oblation if it was holding the job back. We'd have had considerably less, both then and especially in Stormblood.

Just give DRK some goddamn self-sustain, generalize Dark Mind or offer it a shared-cooldown alternative, and fix LD. That's it. TBN has nothing to do with those issues.

[Dracosavarian]

By that logic, whenever a tank is bad, even if they have at that time the strongest invuln in the game (let's say, Hallowed Ground on a 3 minute cooldown), that invuln must also be bad relative to its competitors.

There's nothing about the surrounding kit that makes it less able to slot TBN. Its kit is weak simply due to Living Dead being bad, Dark Mind being magic-only, and the kit having literally nothing in place of Equilibrium/Aurora/Requiescat heals. That has nothing to do with anti-synergy with barriers. Nor would TBN be stronger in any other kit, such as if it were suddenly swapped with any of the other on-demands.


It in no way holds the job back. We couldn't have had an entire Shadowbringers kit short only Oblation if it was holding the job back. We'd have had considerably less, both then and especially in Stormblood.

Just give DRK some goddamn self-sustain, generalize Dark Mind or offer it a shared-cooldown alternative, and fix LD. That's it. TBN has nothing to do with those issues.

When the majority of those who are saying Dark Knight is perfectly fine, specifically because of The Blackest Night, and that TBN is in fact, STRONGER than HoC, BloodWhetting, and Holy Shelltron...( Which, it is NOT stronger than those abilities. )then yes, it is holding the job back.

You may not hold that perception. I myself don't hold that perception, that TBN is holding Dark Knight Back. ( The bloody mess of a disjointed kit, lack of sustain and sheer defensive output compared to the other tanks, and lack of identity and impact is ) It's a Scapegoat used by way too many people saying the job is fine and needs absolutely zero adjustments, because of that ability. But a great many people do go along that line. And it is that perception that needs to be destroyed.

The absolute irony of this is that in many ways, you are actively agreeing with us.

But you communicate your discussion so very poorly that in turn you end up arguing with a great many people when in fact that isn't even needed.


Addendum: This is the last time I am going to participate in this dragged on discussion. Reason being is that I am specifically concerned that if the Dev team ( Or those collating feedback for them ) come in and see a thread filled not with feedback, but with constant bickering that is going on back and forth incessantly, then it will in fact HURT our chances of being heard in turn.

So, to wit. I am going to ignore any future conversation that is contradictory, argumentative, or antagonistic as it does not serve the purpose of this thread. Providing feedback to the development team in the sheer hopes that Dark Knight gets fixed.

[Garlan]

I still struggle to comprehend why people are wanting TBN changed instead of Oblation. Altering Oblation wouldn't be invasive in the slightest, as it would only require one expansion worth of balancing along with having zero reliances on a resource outside of being a typical CD. Plus, Oblation could be given additional effects that could more easily shore up TBN's weaknesses (lack of mitigation in trash pulls and multi-hit TB's) compared to the alternative.