*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Cleretic]

Again, that plan was built out of twelve thousand years of torment and despair. It was very likely not their *original* plan.

And again: no it wasn't. We meet them and learn about their plan twelve thousand years after the Sundering, but as far as we can discern, they spent basically that entire twelve thousand years causing them. We don't know timeframes for the first three, but we can estimate:

It was about one thousand years between the Fourth and the Fifth Umbral Calamities. and then roughly fifteen hundred between both the Fifth and Sixth and Sixth and Seventh. (Brief time between the Seventh and intended Eighth is known to be a statistical outlier and so cannot be counted). So we've got ballpark figures for about how long it takes to set up a Calamity; conservative guess then says that the first Calamity was nine thousand years ago (if the thousand year gap is normal), and more plausible liberal guesses say somewhere over eleven thousand (if the fifteen hundred figures are more typical). Then we have to factor in the amount of time it would've taken to prep the first Calamity, which means we have to tack on another thousand to fifteen hundred years, and--oh crap, the math is saying they might have started immediately after the Sundering.

And THEN we need to take the Thirteenth into account; there was a failed Rejoining before the first Calamity. We have no estimates on how long that attempt would have taken, but we know that there wasn't work on the Source for it. Knowing that they didn't know exactly what they were doing at the time, we have to assume a slow process on that one, so even the conservative guess says they might've started their plot damn near immediately.

[EaraGrace]

If you don't like the word "contrivances", go with "plot elements". The fact of the matter is that the ancients were divided over this topic, for reasons we don't exactly know, even if we do know what was animating Venat's concerns now. Hence that poster, pointing me to that cutscene is a waste of my time, because this whole topic was covered extensively in SHB through a multitude of sources and was not as simplistic as that stylised scene ultimately makes it out to be.

Whatever makes it easy for you to sleep at night. Selectively choosing scenes to believe and one’s not to does not equal canon however. If you want to point out the specifics for the differences, that’s fine. But the fact remains that the plan to rely wholly on Zodiark was doomed to fail. It worked to buy time. That’s all.

Forgiven, because you're not right. I am aware of the point it is making. Where I diverge is leaping from what is shown in the Dead Ends to the notion that the ancients could not possibly have adjusted their ways without being sundered, if they had been given the requisite information, and not just in the form of inspirational quotes.

Venat would disagree, a position she gained nothing from having. Emet as well would concede that Venats path was the correct one. As much as I respect your opinion and your right to have it, I will place their judgements of what Ancient society could and couldn’t do over yours.

Venat herself states that the conclusion of Hermes's report would not phase many of her people and that unlike Hermes, they'd be able to accept it. But the fact is, they were not presented with this information, which would have provided tangible proof of her concerns. At the time, they were grieving the utter devastation of their star and decimation of their population.

I would ask for the full quote your referencing.

Give them the information in full and we'll talk. Until then we're dealing on the mere say-so that they wouldn't.

Once again, denying canon statements won’t make them any less important.

I hold them as having less moral consideration period. Again, ensouled does not necessarily mean sentient. Mankind and some particular familiars were sentient, plants are not

Thats fine. My point however is a soul is a soul. There is no distinction made between a humans, and plants in universe..

[KizuyaKatogami]

And forgive me, but if I’m reading you right I think you’ve missed the point of Dead Ends and the message of Ultima Thule. Etheirys will eventually die. All things will eventually die. It was that revelation that broke the Ea. The point Venat makes, the point of the Sundering and defeating Meteion, was that even with the inevitability of the end, you should fight for tomorrow. That even if only for another day, people will be able to live, find beauty in world, hear, feel, and think. And that that is worth fighting for.

And yet, she didnt fight for tomorrow for her own people. She gave up on tomorrow for them and instead placed the hope of tomorrow in the hands of someone she had only just met. She gave up on her people, lied and manipulated them, and then shattered them all in the blink of an eye without even telling them what would happen. So please tell me why i should listen to someone telling me to fight for tomorrow or whats worth fighting for when she herself couldnt even bring herself to do that for her own people hm? Once again, she is a hypocrite.

[EaraGrace]

And yet, she didnt fight for tomorrow for her own people. She gave up on tomorrow for them and instead placed the hope of tomorrow in the hands of someone she had only just met. She gave up on her people, lied and manipulated them, and then shattered them all in the blink of an eye without even telling them what would happen. So please tell me why i should listen to someone telling me to fight for tomorrow or whats worth fighting for when she herself couldnt even bring herself to do that for her own people hm? Once again, she is a hypocrite.

You do realize the sundered are those Ancients yes? They are her people. It was Emets and the Ascians mistake to believe they were different enough to not be worth a thought.

[Lauront]

Whatever makes it easy for you to sleep at night. Selectively choosing scenes to believe and one’s not to does not equal canon however. If you want to point out the specifics for the differences, that’s fine. But the fact remains that the plan to rely wholly on Zodiark was doomed to fail. It worked to buy time. That’s all.

I don't recall disputing that reliance solely on him would not work given the nature of the true cause of the Final Days. What I am disputing is calling it idiotic with the context of the information that they had.

Venat would disagree, a position she gained nothing from having. Emet as well would concede that Venats path was the correct one.

Do you mean that scene whereby in the French version he narrows his concession to getting them to Ultima Thule? I don't consider it adequate, sorry. And that is even if I were inclined to simply take their opinions over more tangible evidence of how they'd react.

As much as I respect your opinion and your right to have it, I will place their judgements of what Ancient society could and couldn’t do over yours.

And I'd like to see how the ancients would've reacted and adapted to this information in full. Again, the plot was written in such a way where they weren't allowed it.

I would ask for the full quote your referencing.

Venat: Bleak as the contents of Meteion's report might be, many could hear it and remain content with their lives.
Venat: But not Hermes. For him, the veneer of perfection has long been cracked, and it was to the distant heavens he looked for the means to repair it.
Venat: I understand his anguish after a fashion─my own refusal to return is in opposition to the world's established order.
Venat: Yet for me, the imperfections only enhance the fragile beauty of our star. I will fight to see it delivered from destruction, warts and all.

So she clearly didn't think that lowly of her people's general emotional resilience.

Once again, denying canon statements won’t make them any less important.

And once more, insisting there is a canon statement to the effect of what they would've done in receipt of the full context behind her concerns, when there isn't, doesn't make your argument any stronger in this respect.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You do realize the sundered are those Ancients yes? They are her people. It was Emets and the Ascians mistake to believe they were different enough to not be worth a thought.

They’re her people split apart and reduced to mere fragments. However correct me if i’m wrong, but it was not too long ago that many people here were arguing that the sundered are different from the ancients and they’re their own people. Gaia as one example. But now it’s that they’re her people still despite being completely ripped apart and having completely different memories and lives etc. Convenient. Still doesn’t change the fact she gave up on them overall. Whether it be her giving up on them via her moon ship plan, or her giving up on them by not sharing her knowledge with them. She really needs to practice what she preaches.

[Theodric]

As an aside, I think it's rather condescending to repeatedly dismiss the French and other non-English localisations of the game when no small number of lore enthusiasts are from various parts of Europe.

[Lauront]

...and when these are often closer to the original Japanese version, which is no less canon and is often clearer on certain points.

[Rannie]

Is there a place where we can read all the quote in an exact translation?

[Lauront]

As yet? No, but someone I know is working on putting it together and I'll post it up when it is.