*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[redheadturk]

Were the ascians guilty of genocide? Sure. But so was Venat. And I rarely see anyone on Team Hydaelyn acknowledge that fact. And tbqf I want to have a way to break the timeline into two separate ones so the Ancients can have the happy ending they deserve too. If Venat had not committed genocide first with the Sundering the Ascians would never have even been a thing. Let them sacrifice the plants and animals, tbh I don't see the problem with them sacrificing non sentient life to get their people back from Zodiark.

[Cilia]

Except that isn't how Rejoinings work at all.

Metaphysical sophistry about souls notwithstanding, that is exactly how Rejoinings work.

Were the ascians guilty of genocide? Sure. But so was Venat. And I rarely see anyone on Team Hydaelyn acknowledge that fact. And tbqf I want to have a way to break the timeline into two separate ones so the Ancients can have the happy ending they deserve too. If Venat had not committed genocide first with the Sundering the Ascians would never have even been a thing. Let them sacrifice the plants and animals, tbh I don't see the problem with them sacrificing non sentient life to get their people back from Zodiark.

It's been acknowledged and the story portrays it as a necessary evil. Shouldn't need to be repeated ad nauseam.

More pointedly Venat's main objection was that the Ancients were willing to sacrifice themselves and new life, and the infinite possibility that comes with the future, for the sake of a past that never was and never will be. The "perfect paradise, free from sorrow" the Ancients wanted back never existed to begin with; they were just looking back with rose-tinted glasses (seems to be a worrying issue with Ancients in general) and unwilling (or perhaps unable) to cope with traumatic loss because their relatively carefree lives of peace and contentment were upset for the first time anyone could remember. More pertinently, Zodiark was an irresistible temptation to achieve that rose-tinted "perfect" past because with enough input he could actually make that... but would the cost be worth the sacrifice? And I'm not talking about aether.

[redheadturk]

Metaphysical sophistry about souls notwithstanding, that is exactly how Rejoinings work.



It's been acknowledged and the story portrays it as a necessary evil. Shouldn't need to be repeated ad nauseam.

More pointedly Venat's main objection was that the Ancients were willing to sacrifice themselves and new life, and the infinite possibility that comes with the future, for the sake of a past that never was and never will be. The "perfect paradise, free from sorrow" the Ancients wanted back never existed to begin with; they were just looking back with rose-tinted glasses (seems to be a worrying issue with Ancients in general) and unwilling (or perhaps unable) to cope with traumatic loss because their relatively carefree lives of peace and contentment were upset for the first time anyone could remember. More pertinently, Zodiark was an irresistible temptation to achieve that rose-tinted "perfect" past because with enough input he could actually make that... but would the cost be worth the sacrifice? And I'm not talking about aether.

I again point out that it was traumatized people she was dealing with when she put that question to them. Traumatized people are not going to be sensible or logical until they have had time to regather their wits about them. Besides, yes, it would have been worth the sacrifice of non sentient] life in order to return those sacrificed so the people could have their loved ones back again. Which I am fairly sure is what they initially had in mind before going through twelve thousand years of utter emotional and mental torment.

Were the ancients perfect? Of course not. But there had not been a war, nor want or hunger, for centuries. Which civilization among the sundered can say that?

[EaraGrace]

I again point out that it was traumatized people she was dealing with when she put that question to them. Traumatized people are not going to be sensible or logical until they have had time to regather their wits about them. Besides, yes, it would have been worth the sacrifice of non sentient] life in order to return those sacrificed so the people could have their loved ones back again. Which I am fairly sure is what they initially had in mind before going through twelve thousand years of utter emotional and mental torment.

Were the ancients perfect? Of course not. But there had not been a war, nor want or hunger, for centuries. Which civilization among the sundered can say that?

Traumatized or not if the Ancients committed to the course they were on then even those that would be born after would be unable to escape the fate they created for them. They gave a will to the star itself, a will capable of eliminating not just mortal threats but the very concept of fear and suffering (as far they knew). They would, in fact, be committing themselves to the same path that those who summoned Ra-La did. Venat herself was the most upset to learn that a world that eliminated suffering begged for death.

And once again, to replace the souls in Zodiark requires you to sacrifice beings with souls. They fully intended to sacrifice living beings with thoughts, feelings and desires all their own, and condemn them to eternity as Zodiark. If you want to argue this is defensible then do so, but don’t pretend the choice was anything else but what it was.

[redheadturk]

Traumatized or not if the Ancients committed to the course they were on then even those that would be born after would be unable to escape the fate they created for them. They gave a will to the star itself, a will capable of eliminating not just mortal threats but the very concept of fear and suffering (as far they knew). They would, in fact, be committing themselves to the same path that those who summoned Ra-La did. Venat herself was the most upset to learn that a world that eliminated suffering begged for death.

And once again, to replace the souls in Zodiark requires you to sacrifice beings with souls. They fully intended to sacrifice living beings with thoughts, feelings and desires all their own, and condemn them to eternity as Zodiark. If you want to argue this is defensible then do so, but don’t pretend the choice was anything else but what it was.

The ones who initially sacrificed themselves did so voluntarily, and we do not know that the lives they intended to sacrifice to bring back their brethren were sentient. Like as not, they were not. Also, the Ancient's society had been utterly stable for thousands upon thousands of years prior to the Final Days. There is no reason to think that once they were stable again post third sacrifice that they would ever have gone down the same path that world did.