*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[MikkoAkure]

I disagree solely due to how the game treats her. There is never a single scene with an Ascian in which my character doesn't have an angry expression often combined with the 'come at me' stance. (I'm not counting post-defeat pity.) This is in stark contrast to everything Venat/Hydaelyn, which is only ever smiles, affirmative dialog options, etc. It doesn't matter if we can argue their actions were grey when the game itself treats the two as black & white.

To be fair, the first 5 seconds of the game is you in front of an Ascian wanting to fight you and then they spend the whole original game and the first 2 expansions trying to kill you, everyone you know, and the world as you know it before they make any actual attempt at making us understand their motives beyond "Hydaelyn is bad, mmmk". The first couple of quests in the game include a black-masked Ascian trying to kill you for no other reason besides "they like to do that to adventurers".

Venat may be a lot of things, but unlike most of the Ascians, our WoL's first meeting with her doesn't include a monologue followed by her trying to kill us. I'd be on my guard too after the first couple of weirdos in masks who teleport in from the shadows appeared and tried to kill me. Without any context, I wouldn't need a "Goddess of Light" to tell me that's bad news whenever one appears before me.

We finally learn in ShB that there's more nuance to it, just as we learn in EW that Hydaelyn isn't pure and gave the whole world the school of hard knocks, but at least she never tried to directly kill us the entire game and only ever acts benevolent towards us. If the Ascians didn't immediately treat us with hostility and said "hey, this low level adventurer is uncommonly strong, maybe we should tell them our story and bring them on our side", things might have been different but that's not how it went down.

[Absimiliard]

Of course that's not how it went down. The Ascians did try it the peaceful way in the distant past, but it always resulted in failure. The people of Etheirys and its shards proved themselves to be far too primitive and violent to even be remotely approachable for the longest time. Then, whenever a non-violent option was at least considered, they'd do something else to make it clear there was no hope of cooperation.

The Ascians were already sick of dealing with it long before the events of the game could come to pass. They've had many millennia to try different approaches, with the outcome inevitably being the same. Granted, the early story random black masked Ascians trying to murder you before you had even obtained Venat's ward thing is pretty dumb no matter how you look at it. It was entirely too hamfisted; very moustache twirling villain-esque. Considering that Lahabrea put them up to it, I suppose it's no surprise. Even the other Ascians considered him a nutter.

[Jandor]

Of course that's not how it went down. The Ascians did try it the peaceful way in the distant past, but it always resulted in failure. The people of Etheirys and its shards proved themselves to be far too primitive and violent to even be remotely approachable for the longest time. Then, whenever a non-violent option was at least considered, they'd do something else to make it clear there was no hope of cooperation.

Yo dude, can you help me destroy the world and all life upon it including your own and everyone you care about? I swear it's for your own good.

What do you mean no! How unreasonable!

[Lium]

To be fair, the first 5 seconds of the game is you in front of an Ascian wanting to fight you and then they spend the whole original game and the first 2 expansions trying to kill you, everyone you know, and the world as you know it before they make any actual attempt at making us understand their motives beyond "Hydaelyn is bad, mmmk". The first couple of quests in the game include a black-masked Ascian trying to kill you for no other reason besides "they like to do that to adventurers".

Venat may be a lot of things, but unlike most of the Ascians, our WoL's first meeting with her doesn't include a monologue followed by her trying to kill us. I'd be on my guard too after the first couple of weirdos in masks who teleport in from the shadows appeared and tried to kill me. Without any context, I wouldn't need a "Goddess of Light" to tell me that's bad news whenever one appears before me.

We finally learn in ShB that there's more nuance to it, just as we learn in EW that Hydaelyn isn't pure and gave the whole world the school of hard knocks, but at least she never tried to directly kill us the entire game and only ever acts benevolent towards us. If the Ascians didn't immediately treat us with hostility and said "hey, this low level adventurer is uncommonly strong, maybe we should tell them our story and bring them on our side", things might have been different but that's not how it went down.

Great post. And I would add this is why I'm still not high on Emet-Selch like everyone else is because the guy has killed tens of billions of people - seven worlds worth - through Rejoinings and wholesale genocides on the Source (not even counting the Primals which existed to cause chaos amongst the beast tribes) just to bring his world back at the expense of our own. And the kicker is because he didn't see us as truly living beings. I mean, I get it. He's a well written character. But that does not excuse the fact that he's right beneath Meteion in wiping out life on a very large scale.

Devil's Advocate for one moment, though. The devs back in ARR really had no idea where the overall story was going. So, back then I think the Ascians were more or less just your standard generic evil video game villains. It wasn't until around 3.x that the current story started taking shape. I think that's what Yoshi P had said. If they had the whole story from the get-go, then I think there would have been much more nuance to the Ascians.

Edit: Actually eight worlds worth. I forgot about the Thirteenth. It was just never Rejoined because it was turned into an actual void.

[Absimiliard]

Yo dude, can you help me destroy the world and all life upon it including your own and everyone you care about? I swear it's for your own good.

What do you mean no! How unreasonable!

Except that isn't how Rejoinings work at all.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Great post. And I would add this is why I'm still not high on Emet-Selch like everyone else is because the guy has killed tens of billions of people - seven worlds worth - through Rejoinings and wholesale genocides on the Source (not even counting the Primals which existed to cause chaos amongst the beast tribes) just to bring his world back at the expense of our own. And the kicker is because he didn't see us as truly living beings. I mean, I get it. He's a well written character. But that does not excuse the fact that he's right beneath Meteion in wiping out life on a very large scale.

But tbf, our character should be smart enough to know who put them in that predicament. It was Venat. She's the one who caused all of the suffering and millions upon millions of death, yet we still treat her as good.

[Lium]

But tbf, our character should be smart enough to know who put them in that predicament. It was Venat. She's the one who caused all of the suffering and millions upon millions of death, yet we still treat her as good.

To counter the idiotic plan to sacrifice half their population to bring forth a god, then sacrifice more to bring them back, and then do yet another sacrifice to...restore the world? A world that was still hurtling headfirst into the Final Days. Remember the last species in the Dead Ends? That was where the Ancients were headed.

Venat's plan was far from perfect but it was absolutely the lesser of two evils.

[Slatersev]

Except that isn't how Rejoinings work at all.

What? The rejoining's absolutely kill the Shard, everything on it and cause tons of damage to everything on the Source..

[redheadturk]

Were the ascians guilty of genocide? Sure. But so was Venat. And I rarely see anyone on Team Hydaelyn acknowledge that fact. And tbqf I want to have a way to break the timeline into two separate ones so the Ancients can have the happy ending they deserve too. If Venat had not committed genocide first with the Sundering the Ascians would never have even been a thing. Let them sacrifice the plants and animals, tbh I don't see the problem with them sacrificing non sentient life to get their people back from Zodiark.

[Absimiliard]

What? The rejoining's absolutely kill the Shard, everything on it and cause tons of damage to everything on the Source..

Shards, yes. Calamities destroy shards and end all life on them. They do not do that on the Source, which is where the Ascians would've benefitted most from willing participants. Furthermore, Calamities do not in fact cause damage to everything on the Source. Every Calamity we possess a substantial amount of knowledge about is shown to have caused comparatively little damage in the grand scheme of things. Calamities do tend to come with a large loss of life, but they are not shown to constitute global catastrophes of a nature that poses anything resembling an existential threat.

All that aside, I would note that individuals living on the Source during a Rejoining reap a great boon in the form of increased aetheric density. Most people, regardless of the era, would leap at the chance to grow more powerful.