Dear Square Enix, do something with GCD healing please.

[glamazon]

If yoshinp played a healer like he plays black mage we wouldn’t even be discussing this because the issues would have been handled.

[Shurrikhan]

Don't really agree the same problem applies to more than 1 or 2 of the tanks, you aren't really ever pressing 1-2-3 on PLD or GNB just because there's nothing else to do. But sure.

Unless immediately replacing a DoT or badly overcapping a buff's duration has suddenly become a contextually viable strategy, that is exactly how each tank works. They just spend a lot more buttons on the same non-decisions and their ability to hit anything else during GCDs are determined by durations rather than durations and contexts.

DRK has only one offensive GCD ST choice between gauge spenders; it just happens to spend 3 buttons (Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike -> Souleater) on it instead of 1 (gauge), meaning it gets two fewer actual actions. Much the same can be said for AoE (Unleash -> Stalwart Soul in place of Holy). Naturally (i.e., without Delirium or Blood Weapon), DRK generate a gauge spender every ~21.25 seconds by which to use a "ST Action #2," admittedly a bit more often than a healer. Choice count: equal. Button cost: Double or greater. And the kit size and depth are not compensated for that cost.

PLD: DoT (3 step; takes 3 buttons). Filler (6 step; takes 3 buttons). Ranged filler (4-5 steps; 1-2 buttons). Ranged DoT (3-4 steps; 1-2 buttons). You maintain your DoT and otherwise follow your filler sequence. The only added points of control are the timing of Requiescat (the action, not the phase) and Atonement count once per minute if you'd otherwise risk desync.

GNB: Better combo on a 30s CD (6-step; takes 2 buttons, down from 4 in ShB). Filler combo (3-step; takes 3 buttons). Far more frequent bankable spenders, though.

WAR: Better combo on a 30s two-charge CD, effectively (3-step; takes 3 buttons). Filler combo (3-step; takes 1 further button). Twice-bankable spender.

Apart from perhaps GNB, most tank gameplay (yes, easily 80+%) is just hitting filler combos in their various forms. Heck, if playing with mods, that filler play, and the vast majority of GCDs used, would be literally one button.

That's not to say such is satisfying, far from it, but it does indicate that perhaps the best way to invigorate tank and healer gameplay aren't merely to give them more button hoops through which to perform the same non-decisions but instead give them actual decisions pertinent to their roles.

[Semirhage]

Yeah, I hate tank rotations too.

Yes, the correct response to "X is boring" is "Yeah well Y is boring too" as if that were some kind of own, or as if they were mutually exclusive statements, or as if it were a reason to never fix X because being boring is normal and we should just be satisfied with being bored because other people are bored too.

[Shurrikhan]

Yes, the correct response to "X is boring" is "Yeah well Y is boring too" as if that were some kind of own, or as if they were mutually exclusive statements, or as if it were a reason to never fix X because being boring is normal and we should just be satisfied with being bored because other people are bored too.

I think this is more a matter of "Filler is boring" -> "Yes, inherently so; as such, let's have less filler (or more reason to cast non-filler), rather than just making it bloated (or attempting awkward gimmicks by which to reduce the cost of anything else)."

[ThorneDynasty]

Unless immediately replacing a DoT or badly overcapping a buff's duration has suddenly become a contextually viable strategy, that is exactly how each tank works. They just spend a lot more buttons on the same non-decisions and their ability to hit anything else during GCDs are determined by durations rather than durations and contexts.

DRK has only one offensive GCD ST choice between gauge spenders; it just happens to spend 3 buttons (Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike -> Souleater) on it instead of 1 (gauge), meaning it gets two fewer actual actions. Much the same can be said for AoE (Unleash -> Stalwart Soul in place of Holy). Naturally (i.e., without Delirium or Blood Weapon), DRK generate a gauge spender every ~21.25 seconds by which to use a "ST Action #2," admittedly a bit more often than a healer. Choice count: equal. Button cost: Double or greater. And the kit size and depth are not compensated for that cost.

PLD: DoT (3 step; takes 3 buttons). Filler (6 step; takes 3 buttons). Ranged filler (4-5 steps; 1-2 buttons). Ranged DoT (3-4 steps; 1-2 buttons). You maintain your DoT and otherwise follow your filler sequence. The only added points of control are the timing of Requiescat (the action, not the phase) and Atonement count once per minute if you'd otherwise risk desync.

GNB: Better combo on a 30s CD (6-step; takes 2 buttons, down from 4 in ShB). Filler combo (3-step; takes 3 buttons). Far more frequent bankable spenders, though.

WAR: Better combo on a 30s two-charge CD, effectively (3-step; takes 3 buttons). Filler combo (3-step; takes 1 further button). Twice-bankable spender.

Apart from perhaps GNB, most tank gameplay (yes, easily 80+%) is just hitting filler combos in their various forms. Heck, if playing with mods, that filler play, and the vast majority of GCDs used, would be literally one button.

That's not to say such is satisfying, far from it, but it does indicate that perhaps the best way to invigorate tank and healer gameplay aren't merely to give them more button hoops through which to perform the same non-decisions but instead give them actual decisions pertinent to their roles.

Yeah, but that's not what filler means. You mostly can't substitute GCDs with whatever and not have it throw you off. Keeping up your combo is important to keeping your overall rotation flowing. There's an inherent interactivity to that too since you aren't just fighting training dummies, but need to find ways to line it all up when mechanics try to throw you off it. For DRK and WAR it might be more true, but PLD? There's not 1 extra 1-2-3 combo in it's rotation you can skip without immediately going off script.

It will never matter if you miss a glare cast outside of that single glare cast. It's pure filler.

[Semirhage]

I think this is more a matter of "Filler is boring" -> "Yes, inherently so; as such, let's have less filler (or more reason to cast non-filler), rather than just making it bloated (or attempting awkward gimmicks by which to reduce the cost of anything else)."

I could turn around and beat the exact same strawman about Cure spamming and how boring it is. We could make healing more interesting sure, but I'd rather just say "whatever, healing is boring filler anyway so who cares, active tank mitigation is boring too so I don't know what you're complaining about. It's a baseline requirement so it's meant to be boring.".

Let's not pretend as if healer downtime activity being boring is an Immutable Law Of Game Design Physics that only silly plebeians in the healer subforum fruitlessly rail against.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah, but that's not what filler means. You mostly can't substitute GCDs with whatever and not throw you off.

As in "don't hit prescribed filler combo button 3, part of the same exact decision, until after prescribed filler combo button 2, which will only ever be used in that exact context but will never be worth clipping short or restarting" (apart from the aforementioned Atonement per minute)?

See, again, the difference between actual complexity and mere convolution.

Tank DPS play is similarly just "higher value GCD option" vs. "fallback, lesser GCD option," just as per our DoT (higher ppgcd, constrained by duration) and fill. They each lack reason and/or ability to resequence combos to different contextual ends (e.g., for positionals, burst realignment, etc.), beyond the aformentioned PLD filler combo trim.

Keeping up your combo is important to keeping your overall rotation flowing.

They're one and the same thing.

There's an inherent interactivity to that too since you aren't just fighting training dummies, but need to find ways to line it all up when mechanics try to throw you off it.

Not really, no. Until such a time as missing a GCD or two could cause you to skip an entire section of your combo, there's literally no effect on your play, only delay. That may be more punishing, or less punishing, than when all but 1 GCD in 12 has the same ppgcd, but if it doesn't ultimately create an competitive opportunity for divergent play...

It will never matter if you miss a glare cast outside of that single glare cast. It's pure filler.

Nor will hitting a Maim, etc., a GCD late change the script you'd play by.

[Shurrikhan]

I could turn around and beat the exact same strawman about Cure spamming and how boring it is. We could make healing more interesting sure, but I'd rather just say "whatever, healing is boring filler anyway so who cares, active tank mitigation is boring too so I don't know what you're complaining about. It's a baseline requirement so it's meant to be boring.".

Let's not pretend as if healer downtime activity being boring is an Immutable Law Of Game Design Physics that only silly plebeians in the healer subforum fruitlessly rail against.

I never said healer downtime has to be dull. I merely pointed out that giving it n rigid steps, up from 1 -- sacrificing n-1 further actions to support it or giving every healer a greater button count than a modern, unconsolidated AST -- isn't going to fix that.

To make healer downtime interesting there needs to be significant and variable cost. That doesn't mean Cure spam. That doesn't mean Cure II spam. That does, however, mean stretches of synergetic offensive action and/or particular moments at which the value of offense is greater than typical and which we therefore want to make room for. DoTs significantly more powerful than our filler actions, for instance, provide that variable offensive cost for healing. But, of course, that variability only matters if preparing for those offensive GCDs actually takes a degree of skill.

Put simply, how interesting healer "downtime" is depends at least as much on the complexity of its "uptime".

(Simply giving healers the tank combo treatment, on the other hand, isn't likely to do a damn thing beyond button bloat.)

[ThorneDynasty]

They're one and the same thing.

Your weaponskill combos are a part of your rotation, they definitely aren't synonymous.

Not really, no. Until such a time as missing a GCD or two could cause you to skip an entire section of your combo, there's literally no effect on your play, only delay. That may be more punishing, or less punishing, than when all but 1 GCD in 12 has the same ppgcd, but if it doesn't ultimately create an competitive opportunity for divergent play...

Exactly. You are actually punished for missing steps in your combo in the long run. You aren't just losing just that GCD, because you want to avoid delaying your entire rotation too.

Nor will hitting a Maim, etc., a GCD late change the script you'd play by.

As you noticed I was talking about PLD and GNB, so why you keep bringing up DRK or WAR I don't know. Anway, if it's a step in your set rotation it's by definition not filler - filler is what you fill gaps with, the moments where you have nothing else to do.

[Shurrikhan]

You are actually punished for missing steps in your combo in the long run. You aren't just losing just that GCD because you want to avoid delaying your entire rotation too.

Even when every GCD is of equal potency you are punished for missing steps in the long run and do not want to delay further offensive GCDs. The additional reason varied ppgcd gives not to delay your rotation (though, again, it does not constitute a decision, since you literally cannot skip ahead in that rotation [obligatory mention of PLD filler trim exception]) is if it'd bottleneck other actions with constrained GCD-tie-ins, such as Life Surge or Reassemble.

As you noticed I was talking about PLD and GNB, so why you keep bringing up DRK or WAR I don't know.

"Maim, etc." was an example (hence the "etc") of a GCD within a tank combo. And if your examples are only applicable to aspects of two tanks...

Anway, if it's a step in your set rotation it's by definition not filler - filler is what you fill gaps with, the moments where you have nothing else to do.

That's exactly how tanks' only or lower-potency-per-execute combos are used, though? Taking n steps to perform a single, not-adjustable decision doesn't make them any less a mere rote fallback.