Would this compromise for positionals work?

[Akantorz]

As someone who has tried to use this forum before, and have had an awful time trying to figure out how half the things work here (Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.) I have attempted to find out what makes people like positionals the most.

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

Terribly sorry to anyone I haven't responded to in previous threads, I really don't like how the multi-quote system functions and works kind of backwards compared to other sights. That being said, glad to see a lot of people now playing monk in the raiding scene though!

Please post your thoughts below!

[IruruCece]

As someone who has tried to use this forum before, and have had an awful time trying to figure out how half the things work here (Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.) I have attempted to find out what makes people like positionals the most.

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

Terribly sorry to anyone I haven't responded to in previous threads, I really don't like how the multi-quote system functions and works kind of backwards compared to other sights. That being said, glad to see a lot of people now playing monk in the raiding scene though!

Please post your thoughts below!

If they don't boost potency, there's no point. A defensive buff is worthless because in endgame raiding, mechanics will hurt you enough to require healer intervention to prevent a death, straight up kill you, or add a vuln or damage down. A speed buff is also fairly worthless, positionals have not demanded nearly as much movement as detractors claimed they did for a very long time.

Positionals should be a significant increase in damage, otherwise they are ignored, and in fact are ignored by many players as is, even among players who are considerably better at the game than the rest of us. Yes, people who do hit endgame content hard as soon as it's available will probably notice the difference between players who are landing their two positionals versus someone who isn't, but outside of that particular group, the rest of the game is designed to be cleared by people who keep hitting buttons on bosses and do the bare minimum to avoid dying (and even then it is extremely forgiving on deaths). Those people don't want to feel "punished" for not playing well, and SE is catering to them to the detriment of the overall design of the game.

[Kazimere]

As someone who has tried to use this forum before, and have had an awful time trying to figure out how half the things work here (Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.) I have attempted to find out what makes people like positionals the most.

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

Terribly sorry to anyone I haven't responded to in previous threads, I really don't like how the multi-quote system functions and works kind of backwards compared to other sights. That being said, glad to see a lot of people now playing monk in the raiding scene though!

Please post your thoughts below!

If you want to move around and hit a mob from a particular position then just do it. Why do you need to be "rewarded" for it?

[Mikey_R]

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

It isn't always about the potency, it is about the thought process that goes into hitting positionals. Working out how to dodge the AoE and get back in as short a time as possible whilst still hitting all positionals, or planning your True North stacks to get the most benefit out of them. The potency is a nice reward for the extra effort you went to to hit the positionals, and hitting 99% of the positionals on a job like old Monk felt good. You knew the effort you put in was rewarded, it was satisfying to do.

But for most skilled Monks, they did not just live in the moment, they knew what was coming up and planned ahead of time how they wanted to make the positionals easier to hit. The boss is about to turn? I'll take that into account and move in what would seem the wrong direction, but because the boss has turned, the side you want is now in your face. Purposefully dodging an AoE in a specific way so that when you dash back in you are on the side you want to be on. It is this thinking ahead that kept your mind active throughout the rotation.

The people that called positionals bad probably did not have the mindset that dedicated Monk players had. They didn't think ahead, they didn't think about boss patterns and how/when the boss is going to turn. You can think of it in the same vein as a Black Mage having to plan ahead on where to park it's butt in order not to move.

Of course, the reward for putting this thinking into practice was more damage. It helped separate the Monks who knew how to play and the ones who really knew how to play. It shows with current Monk, with almost no positionals and the fact you can literally park on the bosses flank for the vast majority of the time, your mind is just not as engaged as it once was. You can really feel the lack of anything to do outside of the 60 second burst phases, which brings Monk's flaws even more into the spotlight.

If you want to move around and hit a mob from a particular position then just do it. Why do you need to be "rewarded" for it?

I know this is a bad point, however I am struggling to articulate my thoughts to get my point across properly. About all I can do is compare it to having combos that do the same potency at every step. You could use the full combo string or just spam one of the actions to get the same damage output. So the choice is using extra buttons to complete a combo or spamming the 1 button for no loss. I guarantee that most people would just choose the animation they prefer and just put that on their bars and save some space. You could put the others on and pretend to combo, but why should you be 'rewarded' for it?

I know it is not necessarily the best analogy, but I am hoping that it does get the point across.

[Kazimere]

Snip

Yeah, I hear you. However, one is far more tedious than the other. I do them, but I abhor them. IMO, it also limits the design they can do on rads, because they have to take into account how much uptime TN has for maximum output. I find it highly suspect that people actually "enjoy" the positional game play. They enjoy the extra damage given. That's about it.

[Mikey_R]

Yeah, I hear you. However, one is far more tedious than the other. I do them, but I abhor them. IMO, it also limits the design they can do on rads, because they have to take into account how much uptime TN has for maximum output. I find it highly suspect that people actually "enjoy" the positional game play. They enjoy the extra damage given. That's about it.

But if people didn't enjoy how that extra damage was gained, then you wouldn't have people advocating for positionals to return.

As I mentioned, it wasn't about the damage, it was playing around bosses and doing that successfully was rewarded with extra damage, in the same way correctly doing Mudras gave more damage, or performing Steps gave more damage. Doing things as intended rewards damage, positionals were no different.

[Akantorz]

Yeah, I hear you. However, one is far more tedious than the other. I do them, but I abhor them. IMO, it also limits the design they can do on rads, because they have to take into account how much uptime TN has for maximum output. I find it highly suspect that people actually "enjoy" the positional game play. They enjoy the extra damage given. That's about it.

And this is what I was trying to prove with this topic. If it was about positionals and positionals ONLY, having a speed boost would be very nice for monk and still lead to some big brain plays without costing dps, but letting skill still shine. But no, it's ALWAYS about having the bigger DPS meter. I have spent HOURS reading posts by like the same 6 people that complain about losing positionals OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It never changes, they always want it to be something they can hold over someone's head, it's not about the fun the movement brings, it's about the ego boost they get from it.

This is why Yoshi P should stay FAR away from the forums, very little comes from reading anything posted here. This place has become a cesspool where the same handful of people upvote one another over and over again for awful takes.

But I'm glad my trap worked. As I suspected, even when I spelled it out in my first post, they can't help but demand having positionals be the Ego boost THEY need. Who cares about other people's opinions right? I main (insert class here) despite having the ability to play every class on one character.

It sounds more like these people don't want to learn anything else and want everyone else to play the way they want. Gee, wonder why nobody likes replying to them.

But yeah, this is my last post on these forums, I can see after all this time of playing the game, trying to go to the official forums was a mistake. Thanks for being a bro Kazi.

[Theox]

Defense is useless, if you took damage you're still getting healed so there's no point, movement speed is too situational and even then if you would suddenly need it there would be a scholar who'll give it to you, so meh.

Simple explanation: hitting your positionals and getting good numbers makes brain chemicals go brrrr and that's why we play games. Damage reduction or movement speed instead of more damage dealt feels like a substitute, like a ride to McDonald's that turns out to be a dentist appointment when you were a kid, for example.

[MilkieTea]

I'm a pretty casual player in that I don't really do anything beyond extremes, and I loved positionals on MNK. I started out as a MNK and I guess this is how I'd explain it:

It's a combination of feeling satisfied that you're doing things "correctly" and getting the proper feedback from it. Think about it like fighting in a boxing ring - using the correct kind of kick from the side of your opponent where it matters most, is going to "do more damage" to your opponent. That kick isn't going to make you faster, or make you take less damage. It's going to damage your opponent more and you'll potentially end the fight faster, with more serotonin from defeating your opponent in a timely manner, and have the knowledge that you mastered your chosen fighting style enough so that you could do almost every kick from the perfect angle, or punch on the perfect spot.

Now, however, it feels as though I've had the rug pulled out from under me. I now have a slightly different fighting style to work with, one that utilizes the same "methodology" as my previous fighting style, but is more reminiscent of my friends fighting style. No less valid, of course, but much less enjoyable for me. My kicks won't do less damage, obviously, but now my fighting style isn't about hitting the opponent from the correct angle, or punching in the perfect spot. It's just about hitting the opponent, just like my friend. Punching and kicking from the correct spot doesn't matter any more - but it did to me. I can still punch and kick from the angles I used to, but it doesn't feel as impactful, there's no positive feedback from doing so. The fighting style wouldn't have benefitted from speeding me up, or making me take less damage, because that didn't really matter. If I took too much damage, I always had someone there to give me a water bottle and bandage me up so I could keep going, they're not going to leave. And If I needed a quick speed boost, all I needed to do was run fast for a few seconds and then return to my opponent.

It's a lot less satisfying, now, to punch and kick at my opponent, because I can't focus on punching and kicking in the correct spots all the time any more... I just punch and kick.

[IruruCece]

But yeah, this is my last post on these forums

I engaged you reasonably, and you decided the thread was a "trap." Unsub, while you're at it.