Would this compromise for positionals work?

[foehnweisz]

As someone who has tried to use this forum before, and have had an awful time trying to figure out how half the things work here (Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.) I have attempted to find out what makes people like positionals the most.

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

Terribly sorry to anyone I haven't responded to in previous threads, I really don't like how the multi-quote system functions and works kind of backwards compared to other sights. That being said, glad to see a lot of people now playing monk in the raiding scene though!

Please post your thoughts below!

Can't be straight up biased that others don't enjoy postionals and only do it for dmg.
If you truly want to find out what others think, might help not to latch onto the one guy that agrees with you and dismiss valid points made on the opposite end.

That said, we're melee! The whole idea of shifting around a target while engage in melee seems natural to me (especially MNK).
As others have mentioned as well, being rewarded in DPS (cause we're DPS) by shifting properly adds to the feeling of mastery, instead letting go of the WASD/Analog and just click away on skills.

Otherwise what are we playing, FFXI? Designed decades ago like all MMO's of that era of hugging/clicking target and spam skills?

[Grimoire-M]

This tbh.

I’ve never had a problem with Monk being a positional heavy job personally. My problem with it is this exact archetype of ‘heavy positional job’ isn’t handled with appropriate flexibility. I’ve said the job needed positional based flank/light and back/shadow chakra generation multiple times in the past because it explicitly rewards and highlights the exact kind of planning the mains of the job love it for while improving its flexibility for newer players as well as letting it scale into higher tempo content better in the long run. That base concept with the right meter count (3/4 each? Need that many pairs minus one for Chakra skills?) would go a long way to informing that without needing explicit positional bonuses. They’re still damage, just with a layer of separation like SAM/NIN had.

That said, combos are also overused and DoT interactions are under-utilized. That needs to change.

[ssunny2008]

Pointless thread, but i´m going to answer...

I would play positionals for 1 potency, i would play them for movement-speed or even defense. It´s not about "getting rewarded", it´s about "what does the game force from me on a class in any content".
That said, if the game would hit so hard that i´m in a better state with more defense on positionals, give it to me. If the aoe´s are so big that i´m in trouble to head out, give me that movement speed. I´ll take it all. But the game doesn´t force it and MNK was the only class with

a) tons of positionals and
b) a 5-15% damage loss if you ignored them.

So far the game forced me to do them. It was no "extra damage", it was needed to compete with the rest, it was MNKs main mechanic. It has nothing to do with "an ego" or something too. It has something to do with being challenged and having fun with a bunch of movement. No matter how many ppl call "positionals are easy to hit", they never have been. It was a little challenge on top of the rotation any class has to play. And on the other hand i just love playing high-mobility and fast classes in any game.

Just look at SGE, it´s another braindead class. I dislike it for being so easy. I dislike it for being a purehealer with damage-reduction in the barrier-category. I don´t even want it to have the highest DPS because how easy it is to play compared to buttonbloat RNG AST for example. But i love SGE for being mobile af and that´s the only reason why i pick it over AST, who´ve been the mobility-healer before.

I straight up hate it to stand still while pressing some buttons. I do give af about hardhitters and QoL. All i want is a bit of self-sustain and high mobility to play around. I would´ve even played MNK if it would´ve the least damage of all classes, just because it was fun to play.
Of course i could still jiggle around the boss for no reasons, and indeed it´s what i´m doing on any melee / tank, but not because it´s fun, just because i´m bored pressing that 1 button every 2-2,5s...

MNK needs his positionals back. There are 4 other melees to play for those who dislike them. It´s an aweful decision to fck up all players who loved that mobility-play.

But I'm glad my trap worked. As I suspected, even when I spelled it out in my first post, they can't help but demand having positionals be the Ego boost THEY need. Who cares about other people's opinions right? I main (insert class here) despite having the ability to play every class on one character.

It sounds more like these people don't want to learn anything else and want everyone else to play the way they want. Gee, wonder why nobody likes replying to them.

Imagine a bunch of ppl play everything but still know what´s fun for them and it has nothing to do with "Play the way i want!". It´s about variety and uniqueness. MNK has been unique with being positional-heavy. I enjoyed it meanwhile i don´t enjoy the others melees that much (and current MNK). And i don´t enjoy playing caster or RDPS. Such classes are either too static, no challenging or too slow to play. But do you see me running around opening hundred threads aka "I don´t play BLM, but... I would play DRG, if... I hate play DNC, but..."?!

I guess not, noone here is. The most ppl just want to stay with the stuff they like and MNK has been the only choice for ppl like me when we talk about fun, not what i´m able to play. If MNK would be still positional-heavy, we would´ve our choice, our FUN back, while all other ppl could play around 4! other melees with way less positionals. Doesn´t sound it fair enough????
So far such guys like you, all the positional-hater out there are the ones that want to dictate others "how to play" and want to be catered with everything the game offers. You don´t want to leave 1 out of 5 melee- or even 1 out of 20 class-choices for those who liked it as it has been. It´s ridiculous.

[wereotter]

The provided examples of bonuses aren't much of an incentive, and that really has a lot to do with the way the game is set up. Fists of Wind gave the monk a movement speed bonus, but we never used it except during the window where Greased Lightning 4 existed, because Fists of Fire was always more damage. Fists of Earth let the monk have higher defenses, but again we never used it because it was less damage. Even right now, Celestial Revolution used on its own will give you a lunar nadi, but you don't use it because... say it with me, it's less damage (compared to Elixir Field)

This isn't just monk either. Black mage, you don't spam Fire 1 because at max level, you have better options in your kit as your go-to damage dealing spell.

Everything in this game is built around rewarding you with more damage for playing your job properly. If people didn't like the direct damage increasing for properly executing them, perhaps decoupling Forbidden Chakra from critical hits and instead tie it to correctly landing positionals, if you want to make a change that's still rewarding. But even then, that's just more damage for doing your positionals, and someone will cry that they don't want to have to do it.

[HemlockEvergreen]

I'd rather have boss mechanics that require precise positioning and movement than having positionals be a "thing", TBH. Phasing out positionals as a mechanic entirely in return for having more complexity in boss encounter would lead to more interesting boss encounters.

[ssunny2008]

I'd rather have boss mechanics that require precise positioning and movement than having positionals be a "thing", TBH. Phasing out positionals as a mechanic entirely in return for having more complexity in boss encounter would lead to more interesting boss encounters.

Positionals doesn´t block the boss encounter to be more complex. It´s the design choice SE made aka

- Make sure pretty much everyone can kill them.
- Make sure buffs will lineup.
- Make sure oGCD healing is up at each damage income.
- Make sure to have a perfect circle / square as boss-room

Positionals have nothing to do with SE´s "search for perfect alignments and symmetry". And to get more complex boss encounters doesn´t mean that the class itself would be fun gameplay-wise. The most bosses get stale pretty fast for different reasons. Ofc it´s subjective to call something fun, but i still don´t get why so many poeple are against a compromise.

- Give MNK his positionals back and call him positional-heavy.
- Leave DRG as the 2nd most positional-class.
- Leave SAM as it is for "mid-tier" in positionals.
- Take away the positionals on RPR and NIN. Work more around their gauges / ninjutsu.

What would be the issue with it? That you hinder yourself to play MNK or maybe even DRG in the end? I don´t play any caster out of leveling, because they´ve casting times. I do play only BRD as RDPS, because DNC and MCH are completely braindead. And and and... Not any class has to be for everyone, it´s not possible. So why not cater different groups with different aspects with different amount of positionals as caster has different amounts of casting times and play completely different in kind of mobility?!

So yeah, serious question... what´s the problem to live with such a compromise?

[HemlockEvergreen]

Positionals doesn´t block the boss encounter to be more complex. It´s the design choice SE made aka

- Make sure pretty much everyone can kill them.
- Make sure buffs will lineup.
- Make sure oGCD healing is up at each damage income.
- Make sure to have a perfect circle / square as boss-room

Positionals have nothing to do with SE´s "search for perfect alignments and symmetry". And to get more complex boss encounters doesn´t mean that the class itself would be fun gameplay-wise. The most bosses get stale pretty fast for different reasons. Ofc it´s subjective to call something fun, but i still don´t get why so many poeple are against a compromise.

- Give MNK his positionals back and call him positional-heavy.
- Leave DRG as the 2nd most positional-class.
- Leave SAM as it is for "mid-tier" in positionals.
- Take away the positionals on RPR and NIN. Work more around their gauges / ninjutsu.

What would be the issue with it? That you hinder yourself to play MNK or maybe even DRG in the end? I don´t play any caster out of leveling, because they´ve casting times. I do play only BRD as RDPS, because DNC and MCH are completely braindead. And and and... Not any class has to be for everyone, it´s not possible. So why not cater different groups with different aspects with different amount of positionals as caster has different amounts of casting times and play completely different in kind of mobility?!

So yeah, serious question... what´s the problem to live with such a compromise?

Because positionals are not "fun", they're busywork and leftovers from an era of different encounter design. As XIV ARR was heavily based on early 2000s World of Warcraft, as per the development team's own admission, and they borrowed this mechanic. WoW used to have skills that could only be used from behind, and tank gameplay is still pretty strictly based on your position in relation to the boss AFAIK i.e. you can't block/parry if you're not facing the boss. As encounter design itself became more busy and movement-intensive, this kind of positional-based gameplay became a little bit pointless.

Contemporary encounter design includes way more precise party-wide movement ("dance-like encounters") than they did back in the early 2000s of the beginning of the 2010s. This is antithetical to melee positionals. Optimization for an specific encounter can be achieved in other ways, like maximizing uptime, optimizing GCD usage, etc.

I'm not "against" positionals, I just have no strong feelings about them. They're a "meh" mechanic that's doesn't fit very well with contemporary MMO design. I'd gladly sacrifice them for more hectic encounters and interesting mechanics.

[Shurrikhan]

Because positionals are not "fun".

All rotation that does not contribute to meaningful decisions is "busy work". That therefore comprises at least of 90% of all actions you will take and buttons you will press in this game. However, positionals not only take no additional keys for their added apm, but in the contexts of movement-requiring mechanics or limited space, do in fact add meaningful decisions.

Compare that against DRG's never-altered from 7-button melee combo, for instance, which provides zero decision-making and takes up 7, up from 0, additional keys for what amounts to automatic damage. (There's a reason button-consolidation mods can play DRG optimally off a single button each for ST and AoE GCD skills, but have literally nothing to offer for the likes of Monk beyond Perfect Balance -> Blitz.)

As XIV ARR was heavily based on early 2000s World of Warcraft, as per the development team's own admission, and they borrowed this mechanic.

Wow, that is some hardcore misinformation.

WoW has one positional, in the whole game: Backstab, which turns into Ambush under Stealth. That's it. That's probably the least positionals or positional elements of virtually any major MMO. ARR's positionals come primarily from the Yoshida period of XIV 1.x, when Yoshida added them in at no basis with or from WoW, and attached even frontal positionals to melee and rear positionals to tanks with a majority of weaponskills having positionals. Positionals are very much an XIV thing.

I'd gladly sacrifice them for more hectic encounters and interesting mechanics.

Positionals aren't taking away your mechanics. They're damn near irrelevant to performance compared to the simple likes of getting one more cycle of burst CDs out before the fight ends or downtime hitting at or just after the 2-minute mark, which encounter design already clearly doesn't give a damn about.

Positionals, are, however, often the only thing that makes our DDR/dodge mechanics constitute actual decision-making for those without cast times.

[IruruCece]

I'm not "against" positionals, I just have no strong feelings about them.

This entire post is a pretty strong feeling against positionals. And again, based on what I've seen of encounters in this game, they have gotten increasingly more hectic with every expansion, so the existence of positionals has not actually hindered encounter design to any appreciable extent.

You say that positionals "are not fun" like that's a universally accepted position, but you're claiming this in a thread where people have said they did have fun with positionals, optimizing their use of True North and their uptime overall in the face of boss mechanics designed to make doing these things difficult. If a player hates being sub-optimal for not landing all their positionals/firing off all their casts, the correct solution for them is to play better and learn the encounters to the point where they can do those things more consistently, or to play jobs where they don't have to worry about such things. And that's how it's been in FF14, at least up until Endwalker.

[ssunny2008]

Because positionals are not "fun", they're busywork and leftovers from an era of different encounter design.

Not gonna say something to the rest, the others here already did that. But about fun?! It´s highly subjective. Given to my statement above, the compromise would be "play SAM, RPR or NIN". What´s the problem with such melees? Why does it have to be MNK or DRG? MNKs core-gameplay had always been about tons of positionals, followed by DRG. But the gap between them is that MNK has a lot of speed and DRG is slow with tons of oGCD´s. So what is it? Aesthetic?

To call something a "leftover", when it has been a thing ~1months ago and that any melees but MNK got more meaning (potency) on positionals, is highly questionable. "Busy" is subjective too... i´m busy to to reach the 999 999 999 Gil, but in kind of current MNK gameplay? I´m bored af.