Would this compromise for positionals work?

[Akantorz]

As someone who has tried to use this forum before, and have had an awful time trying to figure out how half the things work here (Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.) I have attempted to find out what makes people like positionals the most.

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

Terribly sorry to anyone I haven't responded to in previous threads, I really don't like how the multi-quote system functions and works kind of backwards compared to other sights. That being said, glad to see a lot of people now playing monk in the raiding scene though!

Please post your thoughts below!

[IruruCece]

As someone who has tried to use this forum before, and have had an awful time trying to figure out how half the things work here (Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.) I have attempted to find out what makes people like positionals the most.

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

Terribly sorry to anyone I haven't responded to in previous threads, I really don't like how the multi-quote system functions and works kind of backwards compared to other sights. That being said, glad to see a lot of people now playing monk in the raiding scene though!

Please post your thoughts below!

If they don't boost potency, there's no point. A defensive buff is worthless because in endgame raiding, mechanics will hurt you enough to require healer intervention to prevent a death, straight up kill you, or add a vuln or damage down. A speed buff is also fairly worthless, positionals have not demanded nearly as much movement as detractors claimed they did for a very long time.

Positionals should be a significant increase in damage, otherwise they are ignored, and in fact are ignored by many players as is, even among players who are considerably better at the game than the rest of us. Yes, people who do hit endgame content hard as soon as it's available will probably notice the difference between players who are landing their two positionals versus someone who isn't, but outside of that particular group, the rest of the game is designed to be cleared by people who keep hitting buttons on bosses and do the bare minimum to avoid dying (and even then it is extremely forgiving on deaths). Those people don't want to feel "punished" for not playing well, and SE is catering to them to the detriment of the overall design of the game.

[Adonan]

You and the OP looks like twins separated at birth.

[Kazimere]

As someone who has tried to use this forum before, and have had an awful time trying to figure out how half the things work here (Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.) I have attempted to find out what makes people like positionals the most.

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

Terribly sorry to anyone I haven't responded to in previous threads, I really don't like how the multi-quote system functions and works kind of backwards compared to other sights. That being said, glad to see a lot of people now playing monk in the raiding scene though!

Please post your thoughts below!

If you want to move around and hit a mob from a particular position then just do it. Why do you need to be "rewarded" for it?

[Canadane]

Seriously, the reply system here is very strange I still don't get how you quote multiple people.

It's pretty standard BBforums stuff. It's bare bones but it's not like it's not been around the Internet for decades now lol
I'll even quote someone else here, it's pretty easy.

If you want to move around and hit a mob from a particular position then just do it. Why do you need to be "rewarded" for it?

Higher skill ceilings to reward players who put in more effort than those that don't. We keep lowering it though there still needs to be something there, else nobody would have any motivation to do anything but stand there and press their attack over and over....

[Kira_Yaeger]

If you want to move around and hit a mob from a particular position then just do it. Why do you need to be "rewarded" for it?

Do you ever read what you say then think about it? Or do you just say stuff

[Mikey_R]

So I pose a compromise; if Yoshi P returned positionals BUT, they didn't boost potency and instead boosted something like say movement speed or something defensive rather than offensive, would you be okay with it?

It isn't always about the potency, it is about the thought process that goes into hitting positionals. Working out how to dodge the AoE and get back in as short a time as possible whilst still hitting all positionals, or planning your True North stacks to get the most benefit out of them. The potency is a nice reward for the extra effort you went to to hit the positionals, and hitting 99% of the positionals on a job like old Monk felt good. You knew the effort you put in was rewarded, it was satisfying to do.

But for most skilled Monks, they did not just live in the moment, they knew what was coming up and planned ahead of time how they wanted to make the positionals easier to hit. The boss is about to turn? I'll take that into account and move in what would seem the wrong direction, but because the boss has turned, the side you want is now in your face. Purposefully dodging an AoE in a specific way so that when you dash back in you are on the side you want to be on. It is this thinking ahead that kept your mind active throughout the rotation.

The people that called positionals bad probably did not have the mindset that dedicated Monk players had. They didn't think ahead, they didn't think about boss patterns and how/when the boss is going to turn. You can think of it in the same vein as a Black Mage having to plan ahead on where to park it's butt in order not to move.

Of course, the reward for putting this thinking into practice was more damage. It helped separate the Monks who knew how to play and the ones who really knew how to play. It shows with current Monk, with almost no positionals and the fact you can literally park on the bosses flank for the vast majority of the time, your mind is just not as engaged as it once was. You can really feel the lack of anything to do outside of the 60 second burst phases, which brings Monk's flaws even more into the spotlight.

If you want to move around and hit a mob from a particular position then just do it. Why do you need to be "rewarded" for it?

I know this is a bad point, however I am struggling to articulate my thoughts to get my point across properly. About all I can do is compare it to having combos that do the same potency at every step. You could use the full combo string or just spam one of the actions to get the same damage output. So the choice is using extra buttons to complete a combo or spamming the 1 button for no loss. I guarantee that most people would just choose the animation they prefer and just put that on their bars and save some space. You could put the others on and pretend to combo, but why should you be 'rewarded' for it?

I know it is not necessarily the best analogy, but I am hoping that it does get the point across.

[Kazimere]

Snip

Yeah, I hear you. However, one is far more tedious than the other. I do them, but I abhor them. IMO, it also limits the design they can do on rads, because they have to take into account how much uptime TN has for maximum output. I find it highly suspect that people actually "enjoy" the positional game play. They enjoy the extra damage given. That's about it.

[Mikey_R]

Yeah, I hear you. However, one is far more tedious than the other. I do them, but I abhor them. IMO, it also limits the design they can do on rads, because they have to take into account how much uptime TN has for maximum output. I find it highly suspect that people actually "enjoy" the positional game play. They enjoy the extra damage given. That's about it.

But if people didn't enjoy how that extra damage was gained, then you wouldn't have people advocating for positionals to return.

As I mentioned, it wasn't about the damage, it was playing around bosses and doing that successfully was rewarded with extra damage, in the same way correctly doing Mudras gave more damage, or performing Steps gave more damage. Doing things as intended rewards damage, positionals were no different.

[Akantorz]

Yeah, I hear you. However, one is far more tedious than the other. I do them, but I abhor them. IMO, it also limits the design they can do on rads, because they have to take into account how much uptime TN has for maximum output. I find it highly suspect that people actually "enjoy" the positional game play. They enjoy the extra damage given. That's about it.

And this is what I was trying to prove with this topic. If it was about positionals and positionals ONLY, having a speed boost would be very nice for monk and still lead to some big brain plays without costing dps, but letting skill still shine. But no, it's ALWAYS about having the bigger DPS meter. I have spent HOURS reading posts by like the same 6 people that complain about losing positionals OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It never changes, they always want it to be something they can hold over someone's head, it's not about the fun the movement brings, it's about the ego boost they get from it.

This is why Yoshi P should stay FAR away from the forums, very little comes from reading anything posted here. This place has become a cesspool where the same handful of people upvote one another over and over again for awful takes.

But I'm glad my trap worked. As I suspected, even when I spelled it out in my first post, they can't help but demand having positionals be the Ego boost THEY need. Who cares about other people's opinions right? I main (insert class here) despite having the ability to play every class on one character.

It sounds more like these people don't want to learn anything else and want everyone else to play the way they want. Gee, wonder why nobody likes replying to them.

But yeah, this is my last post on these forums, I can see after all this time of playing the game, trying to go to the official forums was a mistake. Thanks for being a bro Kazi.