Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Atelier-Bagur]

I'm sorry what? White Mage has MP issues? I thought it was perfectly fine at lv.90.

[StriderShinryu]

You don't have to work or be an expert in the field to critique or give feedback on a product or service. However you probably should know something about the actual process if you're going to start criticizing the character and work ethic of the people behind them.

It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

[kpxmanifesto]

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument

It's a desperation move aimed at discrediting someone's criticism. It's a fallacy called "Appeal to accomplishment" and it's a type of logical fallacy, so their argument is immediately considered invalid.

[Krotoan]

...which many people that got attacked in this thread didn't do, not to mention that it's, in my eyes, completely valid to complain and criticize said work ethic when it results in issues like these - or the current undertune of dancer and whm's mp issues, which should have been noticed when testing

I cannot speak to every conversation being had in this thread, just the ones trying to justify attacking the workers behind the game.

All of those being a result of either bad decisions or poor implementation, not necessarily a lack of work ethic or skill and the latter being bad testing, not even the responsibility of the people in charge of creating the content itself. You can definitely criticize every part of that without calling someone "lazy", even the testers may have not been directed to test those particular aspects. This would be a bad call and oversight, but there are reasons that this could happen without anyone ever shirking work.


The entire point being you can say what you don't like and what you want and even what you'd do differently without starting to make personal judgement calls on the workers themselves.

"This mechanic is pointless, I never use it. It doesn't feel like anyone actually used this or tested it's viability. There are, on the same class, way more optimal rotations and solutions for the exact same situation this is used for. I would like this mechanic to work this way since it would be a different and useful system"

To which people will probably say "But it never changed even when I complained about it so it deserved to be escalated because they aren't listening. Obviously they are lazy because they refuse to change it. "

Which is NOT a reason to start insulting peoples work ethics or character. That really doesn't help ANYTHING. You're making huge assumptions about the reasoning behind the problem instead of concentrating on the fact that the problem still remains.

It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

That's exactly the thing. Problems, miscommunication, directives, client limitations and metric quotas all contribute invisibly to what we get. If you don't know the whole road it took for something to get to you, maybe don't call the people responsible for getting it to you names, just say "hey.. this is broken. I don't want this".

[Rinhi]

All of those being a result of either bad decisions or poor implementation, not necessarily a lack of work ethic or skill and the latter being bad testing, not even the responsibility of the people in charge of creating the content itself. You can definitely criticize every part of that without calling someone "lazy", even the testers may have not been directed to test those particular aspects. This would be a bad call and oversight, but there are reasons that this could happen without anyone ever shirking work.

The entire point being you can say what you don't like and what you want and even what you'd do differently without starting to make personal judgement calls on the workers themselves.

"This mechanic is pointless, I never use it. It doesn't feel like anyone actually used this or tested it's viability. There are, on the same class, way more optimal rotations and solutions for the exact same situation this is used for. I would like this mechanic to work this way since it would be a different and useful system"

To which people will probably say "But it never changed even when I complained about it so it deserved to be escalated because they aren't listening. Obviously they are lazy because they refuse to change it. "

Which is NOT a reason to start insulting peoples work ethics or character. That really doesn't help ANYTHING. You're making huge assumptions about the reasoning behind the problem instead of concentrating on the fact that the problem still remains.

you can't, but I don't blame people for calling them lazy either, when some complaints have been there since HW (and presumably not just coming from EN speakers) and haven't been acknowledged or worked on in any way or form, despite supposedly reading player feedback

maybe it's not laziness from those devs themselves because they might not even know better, but from the person responsible for compiling the feedback from the forums and them simply not telling them about the problems, or selectively choosing which ones to transmit and which not

again, I even agree that calling them lazy isn't the correct choice of words and it feels to me that it's used to sugarcoat the opinion that the devs/designers seemingly don't play their own game - or the people responsible for QA/job testing aren't doing a good job, hence the complaints

I just disagree with the notion that any criticism is bad, something which several people in this thread have basically said as they've attacked and argued people who were posting in a completely civil manner, not seeing the irony that they're being no better than the people they complain, about against people that don't do what they're being accused of, all to deflect criticism of any kind

[Krotoan]

I just disagree with the notion that any criticism is bad, something which several people in this thread have basically said as they've attacked and argued people who were posting in a completely civil manner, not seeing the irony that they're being no better than the people they complain, about against people that don't do what they're being accused of, all to deflect criticism of any kind

Not an argument I'd ever make. Criticism is an important part of a "live" games healthy lifecycle. I just suggest that before you feel you can level an attack at the people behind the job, maybe you should understand the job they do better than "I use the product".

[Rinhi]

Not an argument I'd ever make. Criticism is an important part of a "live" games healthy lifecycle. I just suggest that before you feel you can level an attack at the people behind the job, maybe you should understand the job they do better than "I use the product".

I wasn't speaking about you, tbh, but about posters in this thread, who disagree with your notion (and mine too, for that matter)

[IdowhatIwant]

It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

I don't think anyone has called out a single dev like poor Bob in the example here. I believe the comment was directed towards the team seeing how I am the one who made it. Is what is happening here is people are trying to turn the statement into something it is not. The statement that "I believe the dev team has been lazy and has produced lazy content in my opinion", has some how been escalated into slander against an individual, racist, and even an agenda pushing comment. Nothing anyone has said so far in this thread has insinuated any of the things that are being claimed here. It is absolutely insane that people have escalated the word lazy to this degree just to defend the devs. What is going on with this is now far beyond my original statement and I no longer want any a part of as this as it is actually getting to an offensive level to me being a minority. I think people should be ashamed of themselves for turning such a minor comment into this. This is another example of people becoming exactly what they claim to be against.

Those of you that have addressed what was said in an intellectual and mature way I appreciate that.

[Baxcel]

It doesn't help that some people seem to have a parasocial relationship with the game or the role/job they play.

In the end, every change, every design choice, is up to the devs. If they decided to go one way with an element of gameplay or a job, acting like they kicked your dog on the forums isn't going to change anything. At some point, you have to cut your losses or you're just wasting energy being so emotionnaly invested into something that won't change.

We have people here that have been complaining for years about certain things. Things that obviously the devs have no intention of changing or they'd have done it by now. At some point, I have to ask : what are you actually expecting?

I'd like to point out the double standard here.. Indeed people have been complaining about things for ages.. let's take DRK specifically for this.. Living Dead as been ignored since release with no comment, while other invulns have changed.. removal of locking in place with Holmgang for example..

More recently we had people interview YoshiP about some DRK changes.. his response was that "No one had mentioned that to him before" when we look at the 200+ DRK mega thread where it's been mentioned COUNTLESS times.

So it comes down to two thing.. either the devs read the forums and never report it to YoshiP or the devs don't read the forums at all. Either way they are lying about feedback that has been given and that's just as bad as insulting the people who tried their hardest to give honest feedback

[Nyarlha]

I'd like to point out the double standard here.. Indeed people have been complaining about things for ages.. let's take DRK specifically for this.. Living Dead as been ignored since release with no comment, while other invulns have changed.. removal of locking in place with Holmgang for example..

More recently we had people interview YoshiP about some DRK changes.. his response was that "No one had mentioned that to him before" when we look at the 200+ DRK mega thread where it's been mentioned COUNTLESS times.

So it comes down to two thing.. either the devs read the forums and never report it to YoshiP or the devs don't read the forums at all. Either way they are lying about feedback that has been given and that's just as bad as insulting the people who tried their hardest to give honest feedback

From what I remember from this Media Tour interview, the "we had no clue about it" part was concerning Blood Weapon and not LD. At this point I'm pretty sure they are fine with LD situation as a design choice and won't ever change it.

As for the Blood Weapon situation, it kinda feels like (and the interviews during Media Tour where mrHappy asked about MCH and ping issues too) they are completely ignorant of high ping issues. Like, the feedback probably gets to them, they try to test it out while sitting on top of the server and they go like "uh, no, this is fine". Which is, I agree, not excusable.