Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Lauront]

it derailed with the creation because it's about JP players mailing knives and death threats to the devs and not about players criticizing or complaining about class design decisions

Yup, exactly. So people, so don't do that and we're golden.

[Krotoan]

it derailed with the creation because it's about JP players mailing knives and death threats to the devs and not about players criticizing or complaining about class design decisions

Questions:
Do you really think people who would mail knives and give death threats about a video game can be reasoned with?

Is it so farfetched to believe that a statement about verbal abuse and how it's not useful as feedback an can actually be harmful to future creativity is about people verbally abusing developers in general?


I'm aware a lot of people are taking it to extremes (as the forum always does) with "NO CRITICISM!" and "ABUSE CAN BE WARRANTED".. but .. I'd say the founding statement is at least partially asking for people to be less vitriolic in their criticisms or at least not call into question developers creds and dedication.

[Rinhi]

Questions:
Do you really think people who would mail knives and give death threats about a video game can be reasoned with?

no, but one can try to do so, hence the letter being aimed at them

Is it so farfetched to believe that a statement about verbal abuse and how it's not useful as feedback an can actually be harmful to future creativity is about people verbally abusing developers in general?

I'm aware a lot of people are taking it to extremes (as the forum always does) with "NO CRITICISM!" and "ABUSE CAN BE WARRANTED".. but .. I'd say the founding statement is at least partially asking for people to be less vitriolic in their criticisms or at least not call into question developers creds and dedication.

I don't know why you keep implying that I think it's okay for people to spout vitriolic abuse towards the developers when I've said absolutely nowhere that it's okay, quite the opposite, in fact
but both you and I know that some people, whose (valid) complaints haven't been heard, addressed or just outright ignored, all while it's said that 'they read every bit of feedback', might become upset because they felt that they've been getting lied to - for years, in some instances (for example; MCHs ping issues which have been complained about since what, HW? and only during the EW live letter YoshiP seemed to have learned about it)
feeling angry about being lied to about something you care about is a very human thing, and that's the only thing I'm sympathetic about because insulting someone does frick all for your cause and is more likely to put people off your position


seconding the moderation thing from one of your later posts in response to Connor, though from my experience, it's very much hit and miss
most troll threads are allowed to thrive, people get banned for genuinely harmless jokes aimed at nobody or defending themselves, huge chunks of civil discussions getting removed without a word or reason, sometimes even just deleting one side from it (though that could've been the result of an FC mass reporting posts, so who knows)

[Krotoan]

no, but one can try to do so, hence the letter being aimed at them

I really don't think this is a plea for people to stop being crazy. Cause you really cannot stop that and even less so with polite requests. Yoshi P is a reasonably internet savvy guy I'd say and old enough (and experienced enough) to understand what gamers are like. I honestly don't think he's addressing the fringe crazies here.

I don't know why you keep implying that I think it's okay for people to spout vitriolic abuse towards the developers when I've said absolutely nowhere that it's okay, quite the opposite, in fact

I'm not trying to do that, so if you're taking it that way I apologize and will do my best to clarify in the future. I am not accusing you of even tolerating abuse. I am advocating the ask as I see it, that's all.

but both you and I know that some people, whose (valid) complaints haven't been heard, addressed or just outright ignored, all while it's said that 'they read every bit of feedback', might become upset because they felt that they've been getting lied to - for years, in some instances (for example; MCHs ping issues which have been complained about since what, HW? and only during the EW live letter YoshiP seemed to have learned about it)
feeling angry about being lied to about something you care about is a very human thing, and that's the only thing I'm sympathetic about because insulting someone does frick all for your cause and is more likely to put people off your position

People will get angry and I understand that and I understand why. I just like to restate that I don't think that should ever spill over, which is just because I can personally keep it in or weigh it's actual value against being a human being, so as per usual human standard I don't feel it's all that hard NOT to post or respond like a rager. Failing to do so in this case likely being the product of overvaluing a video game or as Yoshi P. himself said "not seeing the human". Not a counter statement or judgement on your personal values, more of a restatement of what I'd like to see and what I do see.

seconding the moderation thing from one of your later posts in response to Connor, though from my experience, it's very much hit and miss
most troll threads are allowed to thrive, people get banned for genuinely harmless jokes aimed at nobody or defending themselves, huge chunks of civil discussions getting removed without a word or reason, sometimes even just deleting one side from it (though that could've been the result of an FC mass reporting posts, so who knows)

It is incredibly frustrating to see the troll threads thrive, but it's also important to learn from them. They VERY CAREFULLY skirt rules and often use them against contributory posters who seek to "put them in their place" or contribute to moderation. The jokes I've seen result in bans or removal almost always break CoC or forum rules, even if it's just the letter... I say people aren't seeing the trolls actual goals and think they're "clapping back" or getting something up on them when in reality a lot of people simply fall for the traps. Our resident returning trolls are incredibly careful and know the moderation teams methods and standards pretty well by now, a lot can be learned by seeing just how far they go and what things they absolutely will not touch.

[Darksummoner]

This thread has derailed off the tracks and straight down the cliff into the lake......../shaking my head.

[Mortex]

The simple problem I have is that they tell us they play final fantasy themself but then you have the most baffling things in job design and balancing ever. Like nin having so little dmg and not making both raijin stay as a buff even when you use another weapon skill just for them too kill a smooth rotation we’re I actually lost all bunshin stacks with good abilities.

Or monk even though it has the best dmg for meeles is forced to play a double solar opener too fit phantom rush in the 2 minute window.

Then you have samurai were it’s actually not even possible to fit all new abilities plus two meiko uses in the opener without under 2 seconds skill speed

And this first savage raid tier has so many undertuned jobs it’s pretty insane (pretty sure if you take the worst ones in a group and try too beat p4s week one im pretty sure you need to play perfect to clear the dps check)

Dancer, SMN , NIN, PLD, MCH, Sam and blm (imagine being a selfish dps job and dealing less then monk and reaper without buffs). And then there is bard/reaper/monk/red mage who go absolute bananas and are taken in 99% of the cases and are better in all aspects

[Krotoan]

The simple problem I have is that they tell us they play final fantasy themself but then you have the most baffling things in job design and balancing ever. Like nin having so little dmg and not making both raijin stay as a buff even when you use another weapon skill just for them too kill a smooth rotation we’re I actually lost all bunshin stacks with good abilities.

Or monk even though it has the best dmg for meeles is forced to play a double solar opener too fit phantom rush in the 2 minute window.

Then you have samurai were it’s actually not even possible to fit all new abilities plus two meiko uses in the opener without under 2 seconds skill speed

And this first savage raid tier has so many undertuned jobs it’s pretty insane (pretty sure if you take the worst ones in a group and try too beat p4s week one im pretty sure you need to play perfect to clear the dps check)

Dancer, SMN , NIN, PLD, MCH, Sam and blm (imagine being a selfish dps job and dealing less then monk and reaper without buffs). And then there is bard/reaper/monk/red mage who go absolute bananas and are taken in 99% of the cases and are better in all aspects

None of that warrants abuse. Those are all very valid complaints about how things work and questions as to what the motivation behind the decisions were that resulted in that system and can be worded as such.

Again, there is no problem with leveling these complaints in a straightforward matter, just don't start your complaint with "are they dumb?". They're not saying don't complain or not to question decisions.

Some of the things I see people posting now are so blatantly incendiary, ‘trolling’, aggressive or rude.

The developers don’t seem to consider feedback from the NA/EU forums, they don’t intend to moderate them in any way, there are no longer any community gm things, and most of the valuable feedback gets buried. At this point they should nuke the whole thing to the ground and drop the pretence that these forums exist for any kind of purpose

As someone who has had posts deleted recently, I can verify someone is watching and reading. While they do not listen to everything we say.. and possibly not even MOST things we say, there are too many changes that line up with popular topics here to think there is NO influence from us.

[Connor]

I can’t speak to the JP side of things, and it does sound like things are pretty drastic over there. Not that it’s any kind of excuse or justification, but I have to wonder whether someone pushed to do something so drastic (e.g mailing death threats to SE) doesn’t have some kind of serious mental health issues. I’d like to hope that taking action like that isn’t something that’s ‘common’ in any country

But, is it really such a surprise that the NA/EU forums are filled to the brim with shit? I don’t understand why they’d go through the trouble of creating an ‘official forum’ just to leave it completely unmoderated in any way lol. What did they actually expect? Is this a thing in JP forums? They can just post whatever the fuck they want without consequence lol?

Some of the things I see people posting now are so blatantly incendiary, ‘trolling’, aggressive or rude. Even in this post I’ve used wording that was entirely unnecessary. I’m curious at to whether anything will ever happen.

The developers don’t seem to consider feedback from the NA/EU forums, they don’t intend to moderate them in any way, there are no longer any community gm things, and most of the valuable feedback gets buried. At this point they should nuke the whole thing to the ground and drop the pretence that these forums exist for any kind of purpose.

Of course I want to defend the developers, but ultimately, how can I possibly defend someone if they’re hiding behind a curtain and refuse to let me see what’s on the other side. What they’re seeing on my side doesn’t match what I can see in any way whatsoever, but they refuse to acknowledge that we’re seeing things differently (‘you’re just seeing it wrong’).

Naturally, I’m not suggesting supporting abuse or harassment in any way. A post expressing disappointment or frustration can do so without being hurtful to others. But at the same time, with the developers deaf to the players, no moderation on the forums, and the game being designed in a lot of contradictory ways. I.E healers have innumerate ultra-powerful oGCDs, nothing to heal. Tanks have a ton of powerful defensive utility, and no damage for it to really matter. Jobs with very high dps output (e.g Reaper, Bard), provide at least the same amount of party support as jobs with minuscule dps output (e.g Dancer, Summoner). I mean, even silly things like how the game acts like it’s some huge deal to manage dps uptime whilst moving your character, even though every job in the game is shitting out instant-casts, ranged attacks, and mobility moves, like they’re going out of fashion lol. Hell only 1 out of three casters lacks a gap closer, and it technically already has one (you just have to close the gap with a party member instead lol).

None of it makes any sense anymore, and truthfully it’s begun to feel like they don’t want to bother trying to help us understand things

[Mortex]

Also some of the jobs that are good tuned are so boring it’s insane. Drk for example goes “random bullshit go” every 60/120 seconds and after this it’s just 3 buttons you press to prep yourself for the next burst window.

Or gunbreaker being forced to not play the first hit in the continuation combo he has in his no mercy window in the opener and every 3 minutes or you lose 1 burst strike plus continuation hit for it

[CrimsonGunner]

or what about how whm never getting his potencies/mp costs adjusted to fit thin air change or identical treatment like the other healers did with their own gauge.

all fixed that could have been made already but didn't despite been given feedback however the only things we got were potency adjustments for dps and a promise that more dps will get buff at 6.08 ignoring healers pressing issues yet again.