Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[KitKatnip]

I played a lot of Wrath and Cata. Tried going back for nostalgia feels early last year. The game has changed for the worse. You can't play the way you want to. They push everyone into Shadowlands as quickly as possible and it completely ruins any story the old expansions had. You can't do the old dungeons without Chromie Time. You can't do the old zones without Chromie Time. And Chromie time is disabled once you get to like 46 I think it was (I was expecting at least 48 but noooo) so you have to play the way the developers want you to play, which is grinding out a bunch of pointless things that get removed in the next expansion. It's a horribly designed treadmill to keep you subbed and playing as long as possible so their numbers look good for the shareholders. Very disappointing.

[Shurrikhan]

Not a defense of WoW, but there's a lot of misinformation in the above post.

You can't play the way you want to.

Unless what you want to do is to play every prior expansion on a single character (which you can still do, technically), there's nothing constraining you.

You can't do the old dungeons without Chromie Time.

You can, more so than you could before. Whereas before you could queue for a given dungeon for some 5 levels' span over 120 total levels, now you can queue for it for some 10-15 levels' span over 60 total levels.

You can't do the old zones without Chromie Time.

You can, again, more so than you could before. Even without Chromie Time, Vanilla zones will take you up to level 30, iirc, 60% of the way to pre-expansion, rather than only 50% as before (up to 60 out of 120).

And Chromie time is disabled once you get to like 46 I think it was (I was expecting at least 48 but noooo)

It's disabled only after reaching level 50. You can access the starting quest for Shadowlands until 48 but it doesn't push you towards it until 50.
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Separately, as these are just a little odd...

so you have to play the way the developers want you to play,

Every reward system does this. This is equally true of our challenge logs and daily roulettes, for instance.

which is grinding out a bunch of pointless things that get removed in the next expansion.

You'll find this, likewise, true of most modern MMOs, including this one. Our relics lose their relevance as anything but glamour only some 4 levels into each following expansion. Gear loses its relevance with every tier's release. Etc., etc.

It's a horribly designed treadmill to keep you subbed and playing as long as possible so their numbers look good for the shareholders.

This, too, describes virtually every MMO.

[KitKatnip]

Not a defense of WoW, but there's a lot of misinformation in the above post.


Unless what you want to do is to play every prior expansion on a single character (which you can still do, technically), there's nothing constraining you.

You can, more so than you could before. Whereas before you could queue for a given dungeon for some 5 levels' span over 120 total levels, now you can queue for it for some 10-15 levels' span over 60 total levels.


You can, again, more so than you could before. Even without Chromie Time, Vanilla zones will take you up to level 30, iirc, 60% of the way to pre-expansion, rather than only 50% as before (up to 60 out of 120).


It's disabled only after reaching level 50. You can access the starting quest for Shadowlands until 48 but it doesn't push you towards it until 50.
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Separately, as these are just a little odd...


Every reward system does this. This is equally true of our challenge logs and daily roulettes, for instance.

You'll find this, likewise, true of most modern MMOs, including this one. Our relics lose their relevance as anything but glamour only some 4 levels into each following expansion. Gear loses its relevance with every tier's release. Etc., etc.


This, too, describes virtually every MMO.

That was not my experience.

[Melorie]

so you have to play the way the developers want you to play, which is grinding out a bunch of pointless things that get removed in the next expansion.

Isn't that almost every MMO? Including FFXIV. Except maybe BDO, GW2 and RO comes to mind. I don't get this argument. Maybe you don't clicked with WoW and thus, doesn't enjoy it, but these "problems" aren't exclusive to that game.

Also I see "respecting your time" a lot on this thread and this is such a vague, broad thing. Every MMO is a time-sink. Some more than others. What "respecting your time" even means? You either like doing that specific grind or you don't. Sprinkling vague sentiments such as a video-game respecting you or whatever makes no sense.

[KitKatnip]

Isn't that almost every MMO? Including FFXIV. Except maybe BDO, GW2 and RO comes to mind. I don't get this argument. Maybe you don't clicked with WoW and thus, doesn't enjoy it, but these "problems" aren't exclusive to that game.

Also I see "respecting your time" a lot on this thread and this is such a vague, broad thing. Every MMO is a time-sink. Some more than others. What "respecting your time" even means? You either like doing that specific grind or you don't. Sprinkling vague sentiments such as a video-game respecting you or whatever makes no sense.

With a new expansion you expect to have to get new gear because you are going to be a higher level. But WoW takes it a step further by forcing you to grind some mysterious artifact sand or whatever it is this go around to power up your whatsits so you have to be constantly grinding out this stuff so you can continue to increase in power. With a game like FFXIV, you run dungeons to get your tomestones to get your BiS gear (or the crafted raiding gear when it comes out). There may be a higher item level raid that comes out in a patch and then you go play and get your higher item level gear. There's none of this nonsense of grinding artifact power continuously (or whatever the new power source is you have to grind from Torghast every week now to be able to raid).

I don't understand how you can't tell the difference. Just because every MMO has some grind to it, does not mean every MMO is as excessively grindy as WoW.

[Melorie]

I don't understand how you can't tell the difference. Just because every MMO has some grind to it, does not mean every MMO is as excessively grindy as WoW.

I literally said that some MMOs are grindier than others? I just said that your problems are present in almost every MMO, it's how most MMOs are designed.

[KitKatnip]

I literally said that some MMOs are grindier than others? I just said that your problems are present in almost every MMO, it's how most MMOs are designed.

Let me apologize for my lack of clarity in my post. I realize that I failed to point out that I was responding to the "value your time" question and confusion regarding it. Basically, FFXIV values your time by giving you the freedom to play other games at any time while not feeling like you won't be able to raid when you return. This is currently not the case in WoW, where they give you a constant stream of necessary busywork that you must be able to complete all the time in order to be able to do the content that you want to do. So while both games do have a grind (as all MMO's do), in FFXIV you are not trapped in this grind treadmill. You can play other games if you want and not be behind when you return to do the newest patch content. In fact, Yoshi-P even encourages players to take breaks from the game because he understands that the player's time is valuable. WoW, on the other hand, gives you a bunch of tasks and chores that must be done - see all the videos on youtube on unlocking flying in Zerith Mortis, for example, and compare that to how easy it is to unlock flying in Endwalker. The whole flying thing is a simple example of valuing the players's time.

[Melorie]

Let me apologize for my lack of clarity in my post. I realize that I failed to point out that I was responding to the "value your time" question and confusion regarding it. Basically, FFXIV values your time by giving you the freedom to play other games at any time while not feeling like you won't be able to raid when you return. This is currently not the case in WoW, where they give you a constant stream of necessary busywork that you must be able to complete all the time in order to be able to do the content that you want to do. So while both games do have a grind (as all MMO's do), in FFXIV you are not trapped in this grind treadmill. You can play other games if you want and not be behind when you return to do the newest patch content. In fact, Yoshi-P even encourages players to take breaks from the game because he understands that the player's time is valuable. WoW, on the other hand, gives you a bunch of tasks and chores that must be done - see all the videos on youtube on unlocking flying in Zerith Mortis, for example, and compare that to how easy it is to unlock flying in Endwalker. The whole flying thing is a simple example of valuing the players's time.

Oh, it wasn't really you're specifically talking about valuing time! But it is thrown a lot about people discussing MMOs in general, specially WoW. My point is, isn't these things - these grinds per se - part of playing the game, though? Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy how FFXIV chooses to do things, but at the same time, I don't blame someone that doesn't and prefer the feeling of progression that harder grinds give you. Getting the mount that flies in Guild Wars is a grind as well, but something I find enjoyable. I get that it's not everyone cup of tea though, but there's an audience for this kind of thing. I love grinding for things in Ragnarok Online or Monster Hunter - hours spent killing the same mobs over and over again to get a rare drop or a specific amount of xp. When I'm finished, after a long time, I actually feel pretty good about my progress, like I actually spent time on it. It's weirdly relaxing.

So, even though I enjoy FFXIV approach to things, I don't feel like EVERY game should follow it and that games that doesn't are not respecting players. Some games are meant to be a bigger time sink, and there's nothing wrong with that besides preference. If anything, these games value your time differently - the time you spent playing it actually gives you a bigger sense of progression, whereas in FFXIV you put very little time in order to achieve most things. I don't play and never played WoW, so I can't say if it is the type of grind I would enjoy, for example (I don't enjoy every grind), what I mean is that some people play MMOs because they offer time-sink and sense of progression.

[KitKatnip]

Oh, it wasn't really you're specifically talking about valuing time! But it is thrown a lot about people discussing MMOs in general, specially WoW. My point is, isn't these things - these grinds per se - part of playing the game, though? Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy how FFXIV chooses to do things, but at the same time, I don't blame someone that doesn't and prefer the feeling of progression that harder grinds give you. Getting the mount that flies in Guild Wars is a grind as well, but something I find enjoyable. I get that it's not everyone cup of tea though, but there's an audience for this kind of thing. I love grinding for things in Ragnarok Online or Monster Hunter - hours spent killing the same mobs over and over again to get a rare drop or a specific amount of xp. When I'm finished, after a long time, I actually feel pretty good about my progress, like I actually spent time on it. It's weirdly relaxing.

So, even though I enjoy FFXIV approach to things, I don't feel like EVERY game should follow it and that games that doesn't are not respecting players. Some games are meant to be a bigger time sink, and there's nothing wrong with that besides preference. If anything, these games value your time differently - the time you spent playing it actually gives you a bigger sense of progression, whereas in FFXIV you put very little time in order to achieve most things. I don't play and never played WoW, so I can't say if it is the type of grind I would enjoy, for example (I don't enjoy every grind), what I mean is that some people play MMOs because they offer time-sink and sense of progression.

I haven't tried to get them myself, but I understand Relic Weapons are quite the grind if you want to get them. There is some optional grindy content if you want to do it for the status symbol. The title from doing Palace of the Dead is another one (The Necromancer title for doing floors 1-200 solo).

[Shurrikhan]

Basically, FFXIV values your time by giving you the freedom to play other games at any time while not feeling like you won't be able to raid when you return.

Does it, though? The fall-off on blind/learner parties and the increase in ilvl requirements per week past a given raid tier's release are more significant here than in WoW, GW2, or the like. Moreover, considerably more value is locked behind weekly caps, especially for players who cannot yet (be that due to work schedules, learner party scarcity, or having already fallen behind on the ilvl grind as requirements exceed what can be met by crafted gear) do Savage.

This is currently not the case in WoW, where they give you a constant stream of necessary busywork that you must be able to complete all the time in order to be able to do the content that you want to do.

You could get by with doing none of that busywork more easily there than you could with skipping your Astrology caps alone here, though?

in FFXIV you are not trapped in this grind treadmill.

But, you are. You absolutely are. Ilvl requirements, no matter how much you wish to solely blame the community for them, make maintaining one's place on that treadmill a necessity while each tier of gear lasts for less time here than it does in WoW (largely due to a lack of unique gear pieces that can synergize with particular kits for greater relative longevity, much like what we've seen among some XI pieces).

Worse, unlike the seasonal currency caps of WoW, XIV current-tier currency follows strict weekly caps, not allowing one to make up for any week's time lost to overtime work or week+-long rotations, etc.

In fact, Yoshi-P even encourages players to take breaks from the game because he understands that the player's time is valuable.

Since the game's release in 2004, WoW's load-in screen has likewise advised taking breaks, sometimes from the game entirely, as not to get burned out or lose that sense of adventure. Both encouragements are irrelevant to the games' designs, though. The only thing of import there is how much content desirable to a given player is likely to be, in practice and in context, closed off to someone as a result of declining that grind for some period of time. Right now, that punishment is worse in XIV than in WoW. (That's not to say that WoW doesn't have its own problems, such as unnecessarily long initial investment time to actually go and do content, much like if we had to go through a 6.1 to 6.5's worth of MSQ just to go and do even floors 1-4 of Pandaemonium, but the cost for taking a break there is typically less than here.)

WoW, on the other hand, gives you a bunch of tasks and chores that must be done - see all the videos on youtube on unlocking flying in Zerith Mortis, for example, and compare that to how easy it is to unlock flying in Endwalker.

Flight is not a necessity, though, nor is it relevant to anything other than doing those same "tasks and chores" in that same zone that, themselves, unlock flight in that zone. The system of flight unlocks simply causes the bonuses it allows for to become quicker to acquire around the same time those rewards would otherwise see too diminished of returns (as you've already collected all the base gear and upgrading it gets increasingly expensive) to be worth doing. It therefore increases options: you can simply stop there or you can make use of the increased efficiency to continue upgrading items as an alternative to doing raiding, etc., if you want raid-equivalent gear but are too anxious or unfortunately scheduled to actually raid.
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This character is currently some portion through Stormblood, lvl 70, and I can't fly there. I also can't fly in Heavensward, because I didn't take the time to explore every single nook and cranny of the world to get the currents. I don't even know how many I need. I have no idea how long it will take to get flying, just that I really can't get it until I don't need it so much anymore.

Sorry for the edit; I ran out of daily posts.

Go to Actions & Traits -> Travel -> Aether Currents. It'll let you know how many quests and nodes you still need for the given zone. With some few exceptions (e.g., the Lochs), getting flight for a zone is a quick, painless process. The system merely makes you finish the zone's MSQ and explore most of its notable sites before allowing you to ignore any and all of its topography.

If you haven't been using your Aether Compass already, note that it is now weirdly hidden behind /collection. I'd recommend click-and-dragging it to your hotbar(s) for easy use. It'll tell you how far the nearest node is and in what direction. I'd just hit it periodically as you follow the MSQ, at first grabbing only what's close, and finish them off while doing the final side-quests necessary for flight unlock in the zone.

Getting flying here is far far better than it's been in WoW since they stopped using flight training and switched to Pathfinder in WoD.

Quicker, not necessarily better.

The goals are alike in both cases; you can't get flight in either game until you're done with their respective zones. It's merely a difference of WoW considering the open world still a real part of the game even after you've finished the zone's main questline. After several hours of doing world content across the expansion's zones, you have your flight because that's about the point at which they determined you've experienced all even those who like open world stuff would care to experience in full and you're effectively "done" with those zones. In both cases, flight is essentially a post-content bonus, not considered a necessity for while said content is still relatively new or in play.