Disappointed in one Endwalker Aspect [SPOILERS]

[Vyrerus]

Seeing as so much of the discussion in thread is constructed off of this one premise, how did the sundering kill people? Death doesn't usually result in more individuals than you started out with. The sundering probably has more in common with mitosis than it does with death.

It split the souls of every life on Etheirys, causing their lifespans to shortened by a multiple of the times they were divided. It also reduced their resistance to ailments by that amount. In real world terms, the average life expectancy is about 77 years for a person. If a real person were to be sundered, they would live for about 5 years and 7 months.

[Kordarion]

You are wrong about Enervation. Its effects were stated clearly and truthfully in Shadowbringers.

EMET-SELCH: "As a counterbalance to Zodiark, Hydaelyn was created with the power to enervate her foe. This singular ability strikes not at such banal things as flesh, but at everything that defines the target, diluting its existence. For example, if she were to strike at you... *points to Ryne and snaps his fingers, a second Ryne appears* Two individuals identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength, intelligence, the soul itself -- all is halved."


Also, no. The Sundering is nothing like amputating a limb. Amputation requires that the limbs die, not gain new wills of their own. The parts of the original people of Etheirys were split into identical physical copies, which then died 14 times faster than they otherwise would have. The only thing it was necessary for was our precise story, and issues within that story, its plot holes, question that necessity.

We don't even know Venat as well as we know Hermes. A character that just showed up this expansion. Which, Venat pretty much is, since all past renditions of her have been vague expositors which add almost nothing to the character we know her as now.

It split the souls of every life on Etheirys, causing their lifespans to shortened by a multiple of the times they were divided. It also reduced their resistance to ailments by that amount. In real world terms, the average life expectancy is about 77 years for a person. If a real person were to be sundered, they would live for about 5 years and 7 months.

And which part of splitting one living being into multiple all still living beings is killing them? None of it, sure are you being a dick by reducing those peoples life spans, most certainly. But in no part of the sundering are you actively killing any singular person directly.

[Vyrerus]

And which part of splitting one living being into multiple all still living beings is killing them? None of it, sure are you being a dick by reducing those peoples life spans, most certainly. But in no part of the sundering are you actively killing any singular person directly.

Strand someone in the desert without water. They'll die in 3 days. But you didn't kill them directly, so you were just being a dick, right? Come up with a real argument next time.

[Kordarion]

Strand someone in the desert without water. They'll die in 3 days. But you didn't kill them directly, so you were just being a dick, right? Come up with a real argument next time.

Did the sundering leave people with out food, water or shelter? We don't know but if everything was an exact copy of before, which it appears to be considering the near identical geography of the source and the first, then I would argue that that did still have all of the elements needed to survive. What you however are insinuating is that Venat just left everyone to die which makes absolutely no sense for the simple fact that we know there were imediately post-sundering civilizations, the Qitana Ravel cave paintings for example. It therefore shows that you don't have a real argument, you couldn't disagree with my point of Venat not directly committing murder so you push this allegory of stranding someone in a desert as if that is even remotely applicable, you appear to want some reason to paint Venat as pure evil so much that you are grasping at straws to justify that.

We also know that pre-sundering Etheriys was capable of sustaining life considering the fact that we know that the Ancients enacted a second sacrifice to Zodiark that returned the physical world to its pre-final days state.

[Veloran]

It split the souls of every life on Etheirys, causing their lifespans to shortened by a multiple of the times they were divided. It also reduced their resistance to ailments by that amount. In real world terms, the average life expectancy is about 77 years for a person. If a real person were to be sundered, they would live for about 5 years and 7 months.

I don't think this is quite the case, given that if it worked on multiples than the Ancients would "only" have lived about 1400 years. Pretty long relative to the sundered, but a far cry from how they're presented and described throughout the story.

Granted we also don't know exactly how the sundering was performed. That is to say the order in which it happened. For example the Source being divided fourteen times to make the 14 shards would be quite different from all of the shards being created simultaneously out of fourteen evenly divided pieces of the Source. It could be the First is actually about half the density of the current 7/14ths divided Source if it was truly sundered first. Meanwhile maybe the Thirteenth is actually like 0.07 percent the density of the original world. Or alternatively maybe it happened a different way entirely.

there were imediately post-sundering civilizations, the Qitana Ravel cave paintings for example.

We have no idea when the Qitana Ravel paintings were created, only that it was before Ronka. It could be they were painted by someone with the Echo, or even that one of the Ascians aided in creating them (Emet is a "patron of the arts" and shows up there right on cue for example).

[Vyrerus]

I don't think this is quite the case

It's likely not. I'm quite aware that this portion of the story purposefully lacks specifics, because the specifics aren't the point and are harder to write/relate with. But it is illustrative of my point.

[Vyrerus]

Did the sundering

There's a lot that we don't know, but what we do know is that prior to the Sundering they chose when they died, unless killed violently. After, they didn't. The only thing going in the story's favor in this regard is its vagueness, a key component in its malleable, years long structure. We don't know how long they lived afterwards. It's clear that everyone was able to survive, at least in the places we've been, but it doesn't change the fact that Venat's Sundering is the root cause of all of their deaths.

Also, the Qitana Ravel cave paintings were made by the Ronkans, an empire civilization implied to be similar in workings to the Allagans, though never outright stated to be a machination of the Ascians, it could have been. Another thing we don't know is where they got the information to paint what was depicted.

I'm the only one with a real argument in our little "tête-à-tête." You are desperate to deny Venat did a great wrong. You ignore that the principle is the same. The shortening of someone else's lifespan.

Think harder.

[Kordarion]

There's a lot that we don't know, but what we do know is that prior to the Sundering they chose when they died, unless killed violently. After, they didn't. The only thing going in the story's favor in this regard is its vagueness, a key component in its malleable, years long structure. We don't know how long they lived afterwards. It's clear that everyone was able to survive, at least in the places we've been, but it doesn't change the fact that Venat's Sundering is the root cause of all of their deaths.

Also, the Qitana Ravel cave paintings were made by the Ronkans, an empire civilization implied to be similar in workings to the Allagans, though never outright stated to be a machination of the Ascians, it could have been. Another thing we don't know is where they got the information to paint what was depicted.

I'm the only one with a real argument in our little "tête-à-tête." You are desperate to deny Venat did a great wrong. You ignore that the principle is the same. The shortening of someone else's lifespan.

Think harder.

Ok so I got the Qitana Ravel thing wrong fair enough, I got the impression that it was older that the Ronkans, but I am willing to concede that I am wrong on that point. And at what point have I denied that what Venat did was wrong? I admitted that the sundering was a dick move and while I haven't said it I don't think what she did was morally right but unfortunately, as you said, the whole time period is very vague so who is to say she didn't exhaust all other options.

Except I don't agree the principle is the same thing, for me what you are saying is that when a person dies of natural causes their mother is guilty of killing them because she brought her child into a world that ends with death. Sure Venat had a more direct impact in that she shortened everyone's lifespan but then who is to say that the Ancients couldn't have died natural deaths as well? Nowhere is it stated that they are biologically immortal only that they commit ritual suicide when they believe their purpose is fulfilled. If they were actually immortal then yes your point would be valid.

[Vyrerus]

Ok so

Putting someone into a situation that causes them to die is not a natural death. This is the issue.

The people of Etheirys are transcendent beings who live myriad physical lives through reincarnation. In the time of the Ancients they had dense souls and larger bodies which allowed them to live one physical life indefinitely. Even without those bodies, two of them have been shown to live until killed. Those two being Hades and Venat. The two of them have lived 12000 years + However Many years they lived prior to the Sundering. And they could have gone on living however long they wanted to, until they were killed.

[Pofruin]

There's a lot that we don't know, but what we do know is that prior to the Sundering they chose when they died, unless killed violently. After, they didn't. The only thing going in the story's favor in this regard is its vagueness, a key component in its malleable, years long structure. We don't know how long they lived afterwards. It's clear that everyone was able to survive, at least in the places we've been, but it doesn't change the fact that Venat's Sundering is the root cause of all of their deaths.

I'm the only one with a real argument in our little "tête-à-tête." You are desperate to deny Venat did a great wrong. You ignore that the principle is the same. The shortening of someone else's lifespan.

Think harder.

The first sentence is correct yet with no additional information conclusions you have are your own and are not necessary true. The beings had different independent death conditions, and comparing them purely mathematically is just wrong. You can't argue against the point that average Sundered lifespan become longer purely because they stopped randomly killing themselves. By comparing incomparable and drawing conclusions you are just demonstrating bias and nothing more.

About Sundering as death. The Venat's Great Sudering speech states her intentions very clearly: she intents to take away features of people, thus transform them. Now transformation does contain element of Annihilation. It also contains an element of Creation also. So ill concede that She committed Genocide and is responsible of huge amount of deaths. The you concede that she is very literally Progenitor of almost all life on Etherys and is responsible for giving "birth" to most of it from blades of grass to sentient races.

There is also prevalent waving flag of Emets Prejudice against Sundered life here. People calling it inferior and "parody" all the time. While in the story this is not as clear-cut. In ShB it was kind of shown that yeah we are but we still want to live. While in EW it's shown that Sundered life has at least potential to be flat out superior to Unsundered. We have access to two energy types rather than one and have ability to withstand Apocalypses and recover from them. Rather rare ability in Universe it seems. Only Omega and Midgarsormr shown to have it from the alien races.

And the matter of Venat's intention to Sunder. She was not the one that came up with idea at all. As it stands the idea is either paradox created from time loop. Or was introduced by party responsible for time loop.
Venat seems to be unusually aware of time travel inner workings. Perhaps it falls within Azem's portfolio (Wanderer eh?). Perhaps time loop IS the way Azem found to deal with Final Days. That would make our past self ultimately responsible for the Sundering with Venat just playing the role based on the script that WE WROTE.