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  1. #151
    Player Theodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    10,051
    Character
    Matthieu Desrosiers
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Veloran View Post
    I struggle to understand how every part of that definition doesn't apply to what Venat did to the Ancients. She intended to destroy their society and did so knowing that their race would die out by her actions - She intentionally destroyed them nationally, ethnically, racially, and definitely religiously. She killed members of them, caused them great bodily and mental harm, specifically instituted conditions of life to destroy their ideals through suffering, and literally split them up into a bunch of new separate races leading their old race to become extinct. Now, the UN definition is something of a wide net, but she certainly meets every single point.
    Likewise. It certainly ticks all the right boxes. The Sundering has often been downplayed in terms of its effects and consequences around these parts and yet many posters are on record as stating that they were willing to hear Venat's side of the story before passing full judgement upon her. As it happens, the Sundering having been a deliberate act hits very differently to it being an accidental one.
    (17)

  2. #152
    Player
    Lium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1,026
    Character
    Brielle Artemus
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ddwarbird View Post
    That's not what I took away from the game, I took away that Hermes never got an answer to his question and created a love doll that went insane and tried to kill everyone.
    I disagree with you but DAMN this made me laugh.
    (3)

  3. #153
    Player RyuDragnier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Gridania
    Posts
    5,465
    Character
    Hayk Farsight
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami View Post
    No, we would be dead were it not for Elidibus sacrificing himself to help us time travel. We would be dead were it not for Zodiark shielding us from Meteion. The fact is they constantly talk about how the story isn’t black and white and both sides are morally grey yet they paint one side far better than the other and don’t give the opposing side the credit it’s due.
    This entire game is about the gray of everything. Both of what you say are correct, and i don't think anybody disputes those. What is coming up to be disputed a lot is that Hydaelyn is an uncaring villain when everything in the game is showing that, just like Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Zodiark, she was a good person put into a difficult position and made a hard choice that is controversial. She cared about people a lot, to the point where she was willing to force the Sundering to make sure people lived on. That act was cruel (she herself acknowledges it), but led to the current world the WoL and Scions know.

    Her actions since then have been benevolent and attempts to keep people alive. To make her out as a complete uncaring villain is disregarding all the dialogue and lore by the writers pointing to the opposite up to this point. You can still make a horrible choice and attempt to atone for it, we've seen this time and time again in game with multiple characters across the entire story, with notable examples being Gaius, Fordola, Alphinaud (Crystal Braves debacle), Julius, the SAM 50-60 trainer, etc.
    (9)

  4. #154
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    3,472
    Character
    Kizuya Katogami
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by RyuDragnier View Post
    This entire game is about the gray of everything. Both of what you say are correct, and i don't think anybody disputes those. What is coming up to be disputed a lot is that Hydaelyn is an uncaring villain when everything in the game is showing that, just like Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Zodiark, she was a good person put into a difficult position and made a hard choice that is controversial. She cared about people a lot, to the point where she was willing to force the Sundering to make sure people lived on. That act was cruel (she herself acknowledges it), but led to the current world the WoL and Scions know.

    Her actions since then have been benevolent and attempts to keep people alive. To make her out as a complete uncaring villain is disregarding all the dialogue and lore by the writers pointing to the opposite up to this point. You can still make a horrible choice and attempt to atone for it, we've seen this time and time again in game with multiple characters across the entire story, with notable examples being Gaius, Fordola, Alphinaud (Crystal Braves debacle), Julius, the SAM 50-60 trainer, etc.
    I think the problem, and it’s the case of what i’ve brought up as well, the writing is saying one thing in some ways, but what we’re actually shown is another thing and vice versa, it’s a part of the convoluted mess that the whole time travel and kairos plots brought on. I think a lot less people would be inclined to call her evil if they had just made her mind wiped along with everyone else and she did the sundering out of an act of pure desperation. Her not being mind wiped opens up a whole other can of worms of what her true intentions really were etc. Personally as i’ve stated i wouldn’t have had too much of a problem with the way they portrayed her if they applied the same bias to Zodiark and Elidibus, but they didn’t do it just comes off as incredibly one sided yet again which is a reoccurring theme with the story lately.
    (11)

  5. #155
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
    Posts
    2,980
    Character
    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    Likewise. It certainly ticks all the right boxes. The Sundering has often been downplayed in terms of its effects and consequences around these parts and yet many posters are on record as stating that they were willing to hear Venat's side of the story before passing full judgement upon her. As it happens, the Sundering having been a deliberate act hits very differently to it being an accidental one.
    Fair cop, by some perspective Venat is responsible for one genocide, of the Ancient world, by either methods 1, 2 or 3 depending on how you answer questions about the Sundering hurting or counting as death (but she can't be guilty of all three, and definitely not all five). That overall tracks with the game's line of 'the Sundering was a morally reprehensible thing even if it was ultimately needed', so yeah, not a big revelation there. If we are defining the crime as 'genocide', then Venat is guilty of one count and the point of debate is exactly which line to define it as.

    The Ascians are guilty of fourteen counts. These counts are rather less ambiguous since actual undeniable deaths happened, and if you wanted to count them then you could also count rather more mundane acts of genocide performed under Ascian-made civilizations like the Allagan and Garlean Empires. But sticking solely to the planetary scale, we also have to factor in that they weren't done, and that even after all Rejoinings took place they intended a few mass sacrifices of non-Ancient life to Zodiark. It's not clear how many would've been needed (or if the Ascians were ever likely to say 'yeah we can stop now, we're good'), but I think we're approaching thirty counts by the end. All of definition 1, some also being definition 3.

    So, yeah. If we're going to swing the argument of 'Venat is bad because she intentionally committed an awful crime', we can't really neglect the fact that if we give definition to that crime, the opposing side have a considerably longer rap sheet.
    (10)

  6. #156
    Player EaraGrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ul’dah
    Posts
    822
    Character
    Eara Grace
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    She did not save everyone's lives. She was given her Hydaelyn powers by her followers' lives, and then she killed the entire ancient world. She only saved our present-future.
    Enervation is very specific in its effects, it weakens but does not kill. The removal of memories and other effects people purport is unsubstantiated at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    For the survivor cannibalism analogy, look at it like this: When someone is forced to eat another human, it comes from desperation (usually). The Sundering came from supposed desperation, and it used the lives of everything from the Ancient world to make the new life that you value more than the old. That's cannibalization.

    Real live people who've survived desperate situations by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of others do generally go on to have good lives and do good things afterwards. The fact that they intend to and do good afterwards doesn't make what they did right. Neither does the sympathy of the public, who generally place the blame on the dire situation.
    I think the analogy you use is inaccurate. The Sundering was much closer to that of a doctor amputating a limb, a painful and harmful action done for the persons benefit. And yes the Sundering was what was necessary for the Ancients and life on Etheirys to survive. Was it kind? No. Was it good? No. Was it necessary for their lives and the lives of everyone? Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    As for her giving her own life... she didn't do that. She challenged us to a trial by combat and lost. If we had lost, then she would have commanded the exodus. She wanted us to win, but supposedly fought with intent to kill. It wasn't self sacrifice. It was, "Prove you're better saviors than me."
    And what was the outcome of both options? Do you believe Hydaelyn planned to leave the Aetherial Sea in either circumstance? Her intent to kill was motivated solely by the desire to ensure humanity would be able to confront Meteion, not to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    We don't know her, not really. We know her mission. It's our mission, and we made it hers via time paradox.
    We know her much more than most characters. We know her feelings, her desires, her dream for the world.
    (9)
    Last edited by EaraGrace; 01-08-2022 at 01:39 AM.

  7. #157
    Player
    KariTheFox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Posts
    541
    Character
    Hikari Tamamo
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Wouldn't Venat knowing some details about the future, make any choice she makes regarding going ahead with the sundering akin to "genocide"?

    Go ahead with the sundering, and the ancients are gone.

    Don't go ahead, and every civilization and person created as a result of the sundering never gets to exist. As far as moral dillemas go, it's not an enviable position to be in.
    (0)

  8. #158
    Player
    Veloran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    665
    Character
    Vane Weaver
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 84
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    The Ascians are guilty of fourteen counts.
    Given Venat knew about the future and decided to go ahead with it anyway, it can be argued that she's culpable for every rejoining, on top of every instance of suffering and death across the history of the 14 worlds. The latter was actually her intent, and the former was at least known by her and in the case of the First completely allowed to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Enervation is very specific in its effects, it weakens but does not kill.
    Are we still on this? Yes, it clearly killed people. The removal of memories is hardly "unsubstantiated", it is explicitly stated. And as yet nobody has been able to explain to me how beings which had already lived eons could possibly survive having their lifespans suddenly reduced to ~100 years.
    (10)

  9. #159
    Player
    Kordarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    124
    Character
    Lyanneth Greywolfe
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Veloran View Post
    Given Venat knew about the future and decided to go ahead with it anyway, it can be argued that she's culpable for every rejoining, on top of every instance of suffering and death across the history of the 14 worlds. The latter was actually her intent, and the former was at least known by her and in the case of the First completely allowed to happen.
    So do you consider the player character to be guilty of committing genocide then? After all by your logic the fact that we travel into the past, discover the cause of the final days but don't do anything to to stop it happening before returning to our time, and in fact are the reason why Venat sunders the world means that we are responsible for the sundering and every death that occurred as a result.
    (2)

  10. #160
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Hermit's Hovel
    Posts
    3,698
    Character
    Trpimir Ratyasch
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    I think it's kind of an unfair assertion to make, given the nature of time travel. We don't know Venat didn't do everything in her power to prevent the Rejoinings, it just so happens that our timeline exists as a consequence of the OG Final Days / Sundering / seven Rejoinings so we can't observe timelines where any of those didn't happen. You can propose staying in the past but Venat tells you not to because it could get dangerous (temporal paradox, ayy), but point is nothing we did or saw on Elpis could meaningfully alter the (relative) past. Elidibus warned us as much.

    Hydaelyn admits she's responsible for the Sundering and that it was an abhorrent thing to do, not the least because it's caused innumerable avoidable deaths, but it was necessary for humanity to move forward and rise to Hermes' challenge (thus defeating Meteion and saving the star). It's a far cry from the Ascians imploding the fractured worlds and killing their sundered brethren en masse for the sake of their regressive nostalgia.

    There can be a difference between what is right and what is necessary. Moral quandaries, I know.
    (8)
    Trpimir Ratyasch's Way Status (7.3 - End)
    [ ]LOST [ ]NOT LOST [X]TRAUNT!
    "There is no hope in stubbornly clinging to the past. It is our duty to face the future and march onward, not retreat inward." -Sovetsky Soyuz, Azur Lane: Snowrealm Peregrination

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