Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[zcrash970]

The job is fun and they just need to start adding more summons to it as time goes on.

Can I ask why you find it fun ?

[xbahax92]

It feels lacking. At first I welcomed this change, until I leveled it. I do not understand why they would add those super old summons to level 90. I could of understood if they upgraded earlier and we got a new summon instead. They really love reusing old features over and over. Even if some animations are new such as the different ruin iterations - I really cant say that I'm happy with the job. It lacks OGCD's and it definetly needs more "busy" time.
They tend to argue about "player stress" during liveletters, but really - nothing is more fun than a rewarding dps rotation with good numbers.

[Anvaire]

i was thinking, and i think the adjustments id like are as follows:

Return akh morn to x2 rather than the one we get currently. It would mean half potency but this would be acceptible to me, as it would give more to do. Maybe even make the Bahamut flare a cast rather than instant.

for the Arcanums I think Titan is fine as he is, but Garuda and Ifrit needs a little, work - though what to complicate it Im not really sure.

I think ultimately the issue is you can add new things to make more button presses, but that does not neccesarily make it more complex. But variance to the button mechanics is really what is needed. I suppose this is why, titan, Garuda and Ifrit phases are different, the only issue is that its not enough, an additional skill for all three could potentially do this, but then again maybe not.

Oh and id also make it so carbuncle doesnt go anywhere / his skills can be used by all summons. Its rather annoying to not be able to use them, then again this does add another thing to consider within the rotation.

[Riusvell]

Please don't feel bad for having fun with the rework. This was an inevitable outcome due to the tw pillars of opinion that has divided Summoner since its inception. On one side we had those that liked the overly complex, focused on dots and on the other we had those who wanted the summons to be more meaningful. The later won the war between Summoners identity.

In terms of design i think its really good and do have fun with it. But i will also agree its too simple for a level 90 job. Essentially its a good base for SMN but needs some mechanical adjustments to add a bit more complexity into it. I suspect this will come in 6.1 - they gave up Phoenix buffs in 6.05 as a band aid and will do meaningful adjustments later.

I think though the hard truth of the matter is that any rework always has a risk of leaving people behind. But for summoner it was always going to be more costly because the rework was not only about making the job play better, but was also about giving it a set identity it has lacked since inception and consolidating its design approach. The overly convoluted and hard job, was simply a mizing pot of design approaches that had to go. I do feel for those who have lost their main. (I too hve mained summoner since Arr Beta.) But this rework has the right design approach and given some adjustments and added complexity wwill make a very solid job. Assuming of course they do add the complexity and to be real, it is very possible we won't see that complexity until 7.0 and beyond. I truly doubt that, and hope i am wrong on that front.

You had me for a moment until the later parts and a bit in the beginning.

The summons feel even less meaningful in this inception of Summoner.
Right now it honestly feels like we've become a rather generic mage flinging around spells that happen to look like the primals, taking away any identity that we've had.

The rework was rushed and ill thought of, and just appeased the people that claim that carelessly flinging around a spell with a primal's effect = Summoner.

It's fine if you like it, but do understand where some of us are coming from and also that it wasn't just about the DoTs. The DoTs I liked because it was something relatively new to Summoner, no longer being coupled to either Black Mage/White mage. But now we're basically something that attempts being a mage while spectacularly failing at doing so. It has no identity right now.

[Kuroka]

Not gonna lie, I went over the ability list like 5 times furiously trying to find what was missing from my hotbars.

Just started today with it and was like... "what... why are there only 2 hotbars filled...?" lol

Its not bad but really really weird...

[Kuroka]

It feels lacking. At first I welcomed this change, until I leveled it. I do not understand why they would add those super old summons to level 90. I could of understood if they upgraded earlier and we got a new summon instead. They really love reusing old features over and over. Even if some animations are new such as the different ruin iterations - I really cant say that I'm happy with the job. It lacks OGCD's and it definetly needs more "busy" time.
They tend to argue about "player stress" during liveletters, but really - nothing is more fun than a rewarding dps rotation with good numbers.

Lore wise it made sence as we learn why primals temped in the first place, it just kidna suffers from not having any context....

[SieyaM]

I am actually really enjoying it and I am sure plenty of people are going to either insult my intelligence because of it, or tell me all the reasons I shouldn't. A lot of people talk about just "providing feedback" but then go one to insult everyone that likes the job and how much smarter they are because they really got the old iteration of the job. Feedback looks like this "Summoner has a lot of free space on it's hot bars and could use some more abilities to give it some variety in it's rotation". Feedback is not "New summoner rotation is so dumbed down." What I like about Summoner now is that the rotation is very tight, everything works together and if you are keeping your GCD rolling you can easily fit in all your summons, their charges for gemshine and astral flow, your ruin IV proc, and even a few seconds of wiggle room for when I end up clipping a radiant aegis or something. There is certainly room for more though, and while I do enjoy it I understand the feeling that a job at lvl 90 should have a little more going on than this. That really is the crux of the issues with Summoner, if this was back at level 50 or 60 then no problem, there would be a lot of growth ahead but as it is most other jobs are developed more than Summoner is at this point.

[Dahlinea]

The way I see this new SMN, having played with it through the whole MSQ and beyond, is that right now the job is as flat as possible in terms of job mechanics and bad designed.

For example, if you're in a mob trash/boss trasition and Phoenix/Bahamut returns from CD before you finish using your three summons you're better skipping them and go for Phoenix/Bahamut right away.
How can a job works against its own skills like that?
You wanted to see those primals being summoned and do flashy stuff but now, given the way they are designed, you're encoraged to skip them (the main focus of our job) for the sake of dps.
This is no flexibility, it's bad design.

Also, we have Ruin III but rarely use it. I don't want to spam it but it's basically forgotten after LV90.
Ruin IV is a joke right now and it was our best spell to use with Bahamut.


The job needs at least one mechanic that encorages the use of the three summons to maximaze dps. At least this will give something to manage and optimize. For example:

- For each summon used you get a stack or something to unlock a skill that has potency based on number of stacks you have (like Fester used to work with the dots). Could call it Tri-disaster and rename the basic aoe spell Outburst again or whatever.

- Reduce Attunement duration to 15 secs but make it so we have (or at least be encoraged to) stay the whole window in it (some tweaks in the attuned skills would be in order I guess) before using next summon.

- Delete the current Ruin IV and make it an upgrade of Ruin III. (Not related to the summons but current Ruin IV is stupid... this needs a change).

[mathias-merodach]

I am actually really enjoying it and I am sure plenty of people are going to either insult my intelligence because of it, or tell me all the reasons I shouldn't. A lot of people talk about just "providing feedback" but then go one to insult everyone that likes the job and how much smarter they are because they really got the old iteration of the job. Feedback looks like this "Summoner has a lot of free space on it's hot bars and could use some more abilities to give it some variety in it's rotation". Feedback is not "New summoner rotation is so dumbed down." What I like about Summoner now is that the rotation is very tight, everything works together and if you are keeping your GCD rolling you can easily fit in all your summons, their charges for gemshine and astral flow, your ruin IV proc, and even a few seconds of wiggle room for when I end up clipping a radiant aegis or something. There is certainly room for more though, and while I do enjoy it I understand the feeling that a job at lvl 90 should have a little more going on than this. That really is the crux of the issues with Summoner, if this was back at level 50 or 60 then no problem, there would be a lot of growth ahead but as it is most other jobs are developed more than Summoner is at this point.

I, personally, am glad that you are able to enjoy it. Changes to any class can be a good thing that draws a wider audience, makes the class better or tightens it ups. However, with changes will also come those that do not like them. It's clear to want your opinions to be respected but so should you be willing to respect those that disagree and not lump them in a category of negativity just because they do. What I will also say is that feedback is feedback; whether you find it -constructive- or not is based on your personal take. I, for one, do find it incredibly simplified or "dumbed down". to make an even further point on the clear simplification of the job, I'll bring up Gemshine and Precious Brilliance. They serve no purpose. Old Smn had a reason for every button to be there and they were all pressed at one point and tied into the entirety of one's rotation and the class's gameplay. With new Smn, there is no good reason for either ability to exist given their funtion, single target damage spell, AoE damage spell, that locks out the use Ruin 3 and Tri-disaster. We can see, from how they have done Bahamut and Phoenix, that R3 and Tri can be replaced by form attacks. Therefore, Garuda, Titan, and Ifrit could be made to function the same way through Riot and Catastrophe. It would literally change nothing about how the class would play while removing two MORE abilities off the hotbar.

[aveyond-dreams]

Please tell me when as old SMN you were pressing Bio or Miasma.