Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[ItMe]

Wow, I almost feel bad for having fun with the rework.
Why do I do this to myself... I should stop reading threads like this...

[Arkavien]

Wow, I almost feel bad for having fun with the rework.
Why do I do this to myself... I should stop reading threads like this...

Right? I genuinely feel like I should feel guilty for having fun. As if everyone on the forums is collectively saying "oh...you enjoy the new summoner? what's wrong with you?"

[Anvaire]

Wow, I almost feel bad for having fun with the rework.
Why do I do this to myself... I should stop reading threads like this...

Please don't feel bad for having fun with the rework. This was an inevitable outcome due to the tw pillars of opinion that has divided Summoner since its inception. On one side we had those that liked the overly complex, focused on dots and on the other we had those who wanted the summons to be more meaningful. The later won the war between Summoners identity.

In terms of design i think its really good and do have fun with it. But i will also agree its too simple for a level 90 job. Essentially its a good base for SMN but needs some mechanical adjustments to add a bit more complexity into it. I suspect this will come in 6.1 - they gave up Phoenix buffs in 6.05 as a band aid and will do meaningful adjustments later.

I think though the hard truth of the matter is that any rework always has a risk of leaving people behind. But for summoner it was always going to be more costly because the rework was not only about making the job play better, but was also about giving it a set identity it has lacked since inception and consolidating its design approach. The overly convoluted and hard job, was simply a mizing pot of design approaches that had to go. I do feel for those who have lost their main. (I too hve mained summoner since Arr Beta.) But this rework has the right design approach and given some adjustments and added complexity wwill make a very solid job. Assuming of course they do add the complexity and to be real, it is very possible we won't see that complexity until 7.0 and beyond. I truly doubt that, and hope i am wrong on that front.

[Riusvell]

Please don't feel bad for having fun with the rework. This was an inevitable outcome due to the tw pillars of opinion that has divided Summoner since its inception. On one side we had those that liked the overly complex, focused on dots and on the other we had those who wanted the summons to be more meaningful. The later won the war between Summoners identity.

In terms of design i think its really good and do have fun with it. But i will also agree its too simple for a level 90 job. Essentially its a good base for SMN but needs some mechanical adjustments to add a bit more complexity into it. I suspect this will come in 6.1 - they gave up Phoenix buffs in 6.05 as a band aid and will do meaningful adjustments later.

I think though the hard truth of the matter is that any rework always has a risk of leaving people behind. But for summoner it was always going to be more costly because the rework was not only about making the job play better, but was also about giving it a set identity it has lacked since inception and consolidating its design approach. The overly convoluted and hard job, was simply a mizing pot of design approaches that had to go. I do feel for those who have lost their main. (I too hve mained summoner since Arr Beta.) But this rework has the right design approach and given some adjustments and added complexity wwill make a very solid job. Assuming of course they do add the complexity and to be real, it is very possible we won't see that complexity until 7.0 and beyond. I truly doubt that, and hope i am wrong on that front.

You had me for a moment until the later parts and a bit in the beginning.

The summons feel even less meaningful in this inception of Summoner.
Right now it honestly feels like we've become a rather generic mage flinging around spells that happen to look like the primals, taking away any identity that we've had.

The rework was rushed and ill thought of, and just appeased the people that claim that carelessly flinging around a spell with a primal's effect = Summoner.

It's fine if you like it, but do understand where some of us are coming from and also that it wasn't just about the DoTs. The DoTs I liked because it was something relatively new to Summoner, no longer being coupled to either Black Mage/White mage. But now we're basically something that attempts being a mage while spectacularly failing at doing so. It has no identity right now.

[Anvaire]

You had me for a moment until the later parts and a bit in the beginning.

The summons feel even less meaningful in this inception of Summoner.
Right now it honestly feels like we've become a rather generic mage flinging around spells that happen to look like the primals, taking away any identity that we've had.

The rework was rushed and ill thought of, and just appeased the people that claim that carelessly flinging around a spell with a primal's effect = Summoner.

It's fine if you like it, but do understand where some of us are coming from and also that it wasn't just about the DoTs. The DoTs I liked because it was something relatively new to Summoner, no longer being coupled to either Black Mage/White mage. But now we're basically something that attempts being a mage while spectacularly failing at doing so. It has no identity right now.

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.

[WlyemR]

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.

This is a good explanation of issues with old Summoner.

Every other job has, more or less, a very clear evolution of class identity as it levels.
I have played SMN since 2.0, and even though I enjoyed playing it, there was always that feeling of disconnect between its two kits, DoTs and summoning. Most of this is how it branches off of Arcanist, then has to form it's own identity. As the SMN grew, however, the DoTs felt more and more like something that was just there.

This current identity of SMN feels like it is going in the right direction. Separate buttons were paired down into buttons that change contextually. The kit doesn't feel like two separate jobs fighting for supremacy.
The only real issue that keeps it from feeling complete is a lack of low-level skill progression and a lack of meaningful OGCDs. If they were to change Energy Drain back to a 30 sec cast, make Ruin IV an OGCD, and give us a low-level equivalent of Astral Flow (specifically the 86 trait), then I believe SMN would feel more fulfilling as it progresses.

[Caduagm]

there was always that feeling of disconnect between its two kits, DoTs and summoning.

Not always, no. I would say that was true in 2.x and 5.x, because Aetherflow and by extension Fester (linked to dots) were just oGCDs disconnected from the whole rotation.
In 3.x and 4.x, however, by using Fester, you got Aethertrail Attunement to channel Bahamut's Aether and then to summon him, perfectly linking the importance of dots to summoning. The problem was that in 6.x they decided again to throw away that form of catching Aether to call forth the Primals. If the dots were disconnected before, Aetherflow is in its place now, which ironically goes against the core of the job: gathering Aether to summon.

[Lilyth]

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed.

Sunk and failed? Oh boy, what a way to be extremely disrespectful towards people who liked the old SMN.

No, the old SMN didn't "fail", that's just a snarky way to celebrate that which you didn't like is no longer there.

In their own words, the development team reached a wall in further improving the Old SMN which was a class with already lots of aspects and variations to its gameplay. It's easy to understand how in order to further expand upon its current (old) arsenal you'd have to either add more buttons, and god forbid more complexity, or remove traits and skills in order to make room for new ones. Given SE's current stance of catering to the absolute lowest denominator, they not only chose the latter but also went with a complete rework since the problem of adding new abilities would eventually re-emerge with every new expansion, so what better way to solve this by wiping everything clean and starting over? It does make sense.

And by doing so they also had plenty of room to be as creative as possible with the new animations, so much so that they apparently forgot about the gameplay entirely. The end result was the new SMN existing at its most beautiful and horrible state at the same time. Heck, can you even call it a caster anymore when Samurai casts more often than it?

So yeah, they didn't suddently all gather up into a room and said "fuck old SMN I never liked it". There's a lot more layers to it.

[Atamis]

Sunk and failed? Oh boy, what a way to be extremely disrespectful towards people who liked the old SMN.

No, the old SMN didn't "fail", that's just a snarky way to celebrate that which you didn't like is no longer there.

Given SE's current stance of catering to the absolute lowest denominator, they not only chose the latter

Hypocrite.

[Riusvell]

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.

No, flinging around spells with a primal image isn't a summoner. That's just a mage.
I'm legitimately tired of trying to explain my argument while people are just going like; But this is a "real summoner!".
I want my Summons to have an actual impact, not go away after having summoned them. Like it feels hollow to see what they've become now, my eyes roll up in my head. It loses it's "charm" (if it had any) real fast. I miss the non-spaced out Carbuncle, though I am grateful it's still around.

It isn't even about wanting the old one back, at all. I just want to feel like I'm not going to fall asleep out of boredom and play my favourite Final Fantasy job in general, thematically and lorewise. But this hollow shell of a job legitimately isn't it, this rework is not a success and it's not even complete to begin with.
Give me my janky pet back because at least it showed some signs of life, give me my Phoenix combo back and give one to Bahamut. Let me feel like I'm an actual summoner and not a generic mage pretending to be one! I want to fight together with my summons and the current state of Demis doesn't even make me feel like I am, should I not have fallen asleep by then. The spells of BLM and RDM feel like they actually make an impact upon usage, none of the current "spells" on ""Summoner"" do right now. I get annoyed by my primals showing up and I hate seeing Garuda even more now. Wish I could legit get rid of her through non-third party means. Which was what the old system allowed me to do.

They could've done an after image or something to solve the "NO EGI!!!!!!!" feature and keep the Carbuncle around, make use of it's headgemstone but they didn't. There's so many ways they could've taken it, but this is legitimately the least amount of effort being put into a job upon it's rework.

The rework shouldn't drive away it's old fans, it should have never happened and they should've looked into meeting both sides equally. Not favour the one side that is now going around harassing the people that liked the older iteration for several reasons, even if it was it having DoTs. Some of us just want to let our voices be heard and not be muffled out because we're apparently in the wrong for wanting what was our favourite or preferred job to be playable again to us.

Can you blame me? I always wanted more people to play the class and teach them, now I'm actively roasting it because it's legit no longer a job nor a class as it practically plays itself or playing with duplo bricks. I can't call them legos because they're way too advanced for what the current state actually is.