So you're telling me..

[Ransu]

I can't stand the concept of difficulty = strong. I main Akira in virtua fighter and people justify him being insanely good because his inputs are difficult, but difficulty is relative. I dont have a problem with his inputs, but yet it's OK that i can take 70% of your health in a single move on counter hit because the input is hard to do? Yaaaa no I don't buy into that type of balance. Balance in fighting games should be based around characters frame data, hit boxes and their general tools sets (parries, sabakis, special evasive moves etc....), not how hard their inputs are.

It's the same thing here or in any mmo. Balance should be based around utility, skill speed, etc...DRG for example isn't busrty because they have a lot of attacks they can weave while also having decent raid buffs. Samurai on the other hand has no utility and all their big moves require build up and a cast time to use so it makes sense for them to be the best dps along with black mage.

To say a job show be low dps because it's "easy" is beyond stupid and Yoshi P has the right of it with his statement.

[ZiraZ]

I can't stand the concept of difficulty = strong. I main Akira in virtua fighter and people justify him being insanely good because his inputs are difficult, but difficulty is relative. I dont have a problem with his inputs, but yet it's OK that i can take 70% of your health in a single move on counter hit because the input is hard to do? Yaaaa no I don't buy into that type of balance. Balance in fighting games should be based around characters frame data, hit boxes and their general tools sets (parties, sabakis, special evasive moves etc....), not how hard their inputs are.

It's the same thing here or in any mmo. Balance should be based around utility, skill speed, etc...DRG for example isn't busrty because they have a lot of attacks they can weave while also having decent raid buffs. Samurai on the other hand has no utility and all their big moves require build up and a cast time to use so it makes sense for them to be the best dps along with black mage.

To say a job show be low dps because it's "easy" is beyond stupid and Yoshi P has the right of it with his statement.

it's not really about difficult = strong, it's about jobs having extra depth more skilled and knowledgeable people can use to apply and making a difference in their performance, very easy example if BLM, stats have already been posted in this thread, the difference between a good BLM and a mediocre one is pretty big, but the mediocre one is still in the realm of being able to clear a boss.
The problem people have with reaper is your inputs barely make a difference, again as demonstrated by the statistics, the difference between a good RPR and a mediocre one is not that big but the difference between the same good and mediocre players on another job is much bigger, reapers hardly get punished for mistakes or not seizing an opportunity.

I also don't think this is something that can be fixed anytime soon or that reaper should be punished right now for it, it's just a thought about later updates, giving them more complexity will be good for reaper, bringing everyone down in complexity is bad, I don't want to be playing jobs with less complexity than moba characters on an mmo.

As of right now the only thing that needs addressing is AC and their damage as a melee job with strong utility.
Big nerf to AC, small nerf to their dmg probably their 1-2-3 combo, small nerf to monk and a small buff to other melee jobs that are lacking, seems simple and fair enough for me.
I really can't fathom who could ever defend AC in it's current state without being biased to the extreme.

[Quintessa]

The problem people have with reaper is your inputs barely make a difference, again as demonstrated by the statistics, the difference between a good RPR and a mediocre one is not that big but the difference between the same good and mediocre players on another job is much bigger, reapers hardly get punished for mistakes or not seizing an opportunity.

Let's not pretend freestyle reapers don't exist and/or the ones who don't use SoD/WoD or even enter enshroud.

But yes, Yoshida please nerf RPR, so people can STFU about it. Good Lord..

[Kolsykol]

Let's not pretend freestyle reapers don't exist and/or the ones who don't use SoD/WoD or even enter enshroud.

But yes, Yoshida please nerf RPR, so people can STFU about it. Good Lord..

I mean don't you think that it's quite telling that a mediocre/ bad Reaper needs to essentially go as far as to intentionally not enter Enshroud etc?
It's like a SAM not using Midare Setsugekka and Tsubame Gaeshi levels of bad but that's as far as it has to go to make a real difference.

I dunno wtf a '' freestyle Reaper '' is either, they're so on rails that I genuinely have no clue.
The only way you could freestyle Reaper is if you didn't use your abilities on CD and for some reason decided that it was a good idea to not use Gallows until 20 sec after it came off CD or something.
To some extent '' freestyle '' is built into Reaper inherently but I think calling it that is perhaps pushing it a bit.

Like the difference between a good BLM and a medicore or even okay one is very noticeable.
The difference for Reaper isn't really noticeable pretty much at all, people who never use Enshroud are just on a different level of bad beneath mediocre or they're intentionally playing poorly.
Maybe people want to argue that using AC on AoE makes a Reaper good but imo that'd be an incredibly low bar that's just rly basic common sense stuff.

[Maverick_Haas]

I dunno wtf a '' freestyle Reaper '' is either, they're so on rails that I genuinely have no clue.
The only way you could freestyle Reaper is if you didn't use your abilities on CD and for some reason decided that it was a good idea to not use Gallows until 20 sec after it came off CD or something.
To some extent '' freestyle '' is built into Reaper inherently but I think calling it that is perhaps pushing it a bit.

I usually let people off about this kind of thing, but not while discussing whether or not RPR is "easy" and/or needs to be nerfed and by how far. You just demonstrated you don't know how RPR plays.
You could have simply looked up which ability(s) had important CDs, hell even look at The Balance documents for RPR. But no, you had to be lazy and showed you don't know how the job is played.

I expect that, if you're going to call the job easy, you know how to play the job. Else I really think you should do the minimal and look up a guide or something. Here's the full doc on RPR.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...rlWC5DXdU/edit

[Kolsykol]

I usually let people off about this kind of thing, but not while discussing whether or not RPR is "easy" and/or needs to be nerfed and by how far. You just demonstrated you don't know how RPR plays.
You could have simply looked up which ability(s) had important CDs, hell even look at The Balance documents for RPR. But no, you had to be lazy and showed you don't know how the job is played.

I expect that, if you're going to call the job easy, you know how to play the job. Else I really think you should do the minimal and look up a guide or something. Here's the full doc on RPR.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...rlWC5DXdU/edit

I am not sure what you think that I was saying or why you decided to bold that part.
Are you trying to tell me that not using Gallows and letting it sit off CD for 20 sec is a thing because I have an extremely hard time believing that is an actual thing.

I know how the Job plays and believe it or not I actually do play it.
Just because I think it should be nerfed and that it's the easiest melee doesn't mean that I don't play it.

Edit: I actually meant Gluttony so replace Gallows with Gluttony.
Gallows, Gibbet, Gluttony all generic names starting with G I got them mixed up.

[Maverick_Haas]

snip

No, you don't know how to play RPR. If you did, you would know that Gallows doesn't have a CD.
It's an instant ability that requires soul reaver stack. You're probably thinking about gluttony, but anyone who actually plays RPR would have known that.

Please stop talking like you know RPR.

[Ransu]

it's not really about difficult = strong, it's about jobs having extra depth more skilled and knowledgeable people can use to apply and making a difference in their performance, very easy example if BLM, stats have already been posted in this thread, the difference between a good BLM and a mediocre one is pretty big, but the mediocre one is still in the realm of being able to clear a boss.

Define depth or difficulty in general? You'll have a lot of people that say BLM is extremely simplistic and has very little depth to, especially with all the QoL changes it has had and you'll equally get people who say its too difficult to play.

Which one do you listen to? Who decides said class should be better than others on merit of difficulty alone? BLM is designed to be top because it lacks raid utility and it only brings raw dps which is exactly how it should be. How difficult or easy BLM is to play should have no bearing on its DPS balance.

The problem people have with reaper is your inputs barely make a difference, again as demonstrated by the statistics, the difference between a good RPR and a mediocre one is not that big but the difference between the same good and mediocre players on another job is much bigger, reapers hardly get punished for mistakes or not seizing an opportunity.

The problem with reaper is that its overtuned for how much utility it has. Its pushing out too much dps regardless of player skill. It could be the most difficult job in the game and I'd still be calling for it to be nerfed. If its gonna be doing DPS on the level of SAM and BLM then it needs to lose its utility, otherwise its DPS needs to drop down.

This Machinist and Dancer erasure is pretty hilarious imho. They exist, are extremely easy to play compared to a considerable majority of the jobs in the game, and are also competing with Summoner for lowest DPS in the game. Seems like difficulty and output are correlated for some jobs, at the very least.

Don't be ridiculous. Ease of use has nothing to do with their lower DPS and has everything to do with game balance in uptime. DNC is a support close and BRD/MCH basically have 100% uptime during mechanics with the only exception obviously being when the boss leaves the stage. You can't have that kind of uptime and have high DPS. Its why I wasn't surprised at all when I saw SMN numbers. I KNEW they would be in the the physical ranged area of DPS before EW came out. That said, I think SMN is underperforming and needs a buff, but don't expect it to significantly outperform ranged physical jobs since SMN is essentially completely all instant casts now.

Comparing fighting games with an MMO that has a GCD per command input isn't exactly a great comparison, and it roundly ignores the natures of both games while also ignoring some very basic things about motivating players in ANY videogame. It also ignores real fighting game examples where complex inputs on difficult to use characters often results in extremely powerful attacks (and can turn an otherwise difficult to play character who may be at a general disadvantage against a 'meta' character into a very dangerous matchup).

I wasn't making a comparison, just using it as an example of why I don't consider difficulty a valid reason for balance. One of my friends for example cannot do Akira's 1F knee. Meanwhile I can fire it off over and over again with zero issues. "Difficulty" is subjective. I find doing his 1F knee to be quite easy to do and I don't believe he should be as strong as he is in VF5FS just because he has 2 or 3 "difficult" moves, one of which you can ignore and still compete just fine with the character.

Obviously MMO's are different, especially being mostly PvE, but my point was I think balancing around ease or use or not is dumb. Should a class that's slightly more complicated be more rewarding? Sure. NIN imo should be a little better than it is right now. Should that be the defining reason? Absolutely not. RPR is 100% overperforming, but I don't agree with the idea that it should have the lowest melee dps just because its "easy" to play. Its DPS range should be in line with the rest of the melee DPS that have raid utility.

If the only thing driving people to play Ninja at this point is ~the aesthetic~, it's no wonder fewer players are bothering to show their mastery of the job in more demanding endgame content. Just roll up with a Reaper and contribute more for far less effort and fancier particle effects.

As far as I'm concerned, a well balanced MMO would lead to exactly that. You play a class because of its aesthetics, not because it outclasses everyone else.

Ähem what?! Mind to enlighten me?

YP claimed "difficult won´t effect performance" as other said. But phys. range pay tax, because they don´t have to cast or care about melee-uptime. This means, they´re easier to play and lose DPS cause of that. Or do i miss something?

That has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with game design and balance. As I said to someone else, you can't have that level of uptime and high dps. Regardless of how easy RPR is, they are still a melee class that has to lose uptime to mechanics unliked ranged classes.

[IruruCece]

To say a job show be low dps because it's "easy" is beyond stupid and Yoshi P has the right of it with his statement.

This Machinist and Dancer erasure is pretty hilarious imho. They exist, are extremely easy to play compared to a considerable majority of the jobs in the game, and are also competing with Summoner for lowest DPS in the game. Seems like difficulty and output are correlated for some jobs, at the very least.

Comparing fighting games with an MMO that has a GCD per command input isn't exactly a great comparison, and it roundly ignores the natures of both games while also ignoring some very basic things about motivating players in ANY videogame. It also ignores real fighting game examples where complex inputs on difficult to use characters often results in extremely powerful attacks (and can turn an otherwise difficult to play character who may be at a general disadvantage against a 'meta' character into a very dangerous matchup).

As someone who plays Virtual Fighter, I think you could probably name a few things in that game that fall in line with that design philosophy.

If a job is mechanically more demanding and complex, and requires more attentiveness from the player to get the most out of it, why shouldn't it result in a greater reward for the player than, say, someone who just gets to press buttons when they feel like it from a very safe distance? Why would anyone play something that requires maximum effort for minimal reward? The answer is they often don't. Look at how many more Machinists, Summoners, Dancers, Reapers, and Red Mages there are compared to Monk and Ninja, and this is AFTER Monk has effectively been dumbed down to cater to people who have been screeching for years about a job they don't even play that they are put off by the "high-stress gameplay" of moving left and right next to a boss with a clearly defined hit box at their feet.

This is a problem that Ninja, in particular, has been facing for years, and the answer to their personal DPS woes has consistently been "but you provide trick attack!!!!11". Ninja is also now the least played DPS in the game, and the recent changes have pulled the floor out from under its player population. Ninja requires significantly higher CPM than Reaper currently does, yet has far lower raid AND personal dps than Reaper, which has far less to worry about throughout its rotation while also providing a powerful support utility.

If the only thing driving people to play Ninja at this point is ~the aesthetic~, it's no wonder fewer players are bothering to show their mastery of the job in more demanding endgame content. Just roll up with a Reaper and contribute more for far less effort and fancier particle effects.