So you're telling me..

[Scuoll]

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

Those are just bad faith arguments, you can safely ignore them, but there are reasonable takes in this thread, i don't think it should be that controversial to say that different jobs should have different upsides and that comparing ninja or dragoon to reaper makes them look pretty weak as they contribute less rdps, utility and are at least a bit harder to play (least important thing of the 3 just feels bad to get more with less effort in my opinion).

[Maverick_Haas]

Still nobody here asks for nerfs like "2000 DPS less".

I agree it's hyperbole, but effectively people are asking for it to be the worse dps because crest should be tuned? Instead of tuning down crest, they just want to completely kill the class identity.

RPR should have the lowest melee DPS in comparison.

RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.

Stuff like AC is a different thing. It´s just to powerful as tank-healing is. ...which are as strong as or even stronger than the most tools in healer kits.

What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

Also, crest is one of the weakest regen abilities, only beating fairy whispering dawn, not to mention is very situational with a 30sec recast time, where as medica 2 can be recast immediately after the 15s duration. Not saying it shouldn't be tuned, but it's asinine to claim that it's putting healers out of a job.

NIN, DRG and SAM should definately have a comfortzone since they need more input and have 0 utility.

?? I don't think I understand what you are saying here, NIN and DRG have a ton of raid utility?

...Of course you don´t have to agree with it...

I don't agree at all with your opinions, but I hope we can at the very least agree to disagree and let SE do what they feel is best.

Those are just bad faith arguments, you can safely ignore them

I agree with you that they were bad faith arguments, but they also tend to be the "loudest" where ever I look.

[Scuoll]

RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.



What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

.

I am a bit confused by this part, i am pretty sure the fantasy of every melee dps is doing damage, ninja stabs and casts magic, dragoon is shooting dragons and jumping all over the place, samurai does big sword slashes, am i missing something?
Is it alright for ninja fantasy if it hits like a wet noodle while stunlocking yourself with raiju dashes? Kinda weird argument

Also, i agree it makes more sense for reaper to be a damage dealer first and foremost than the melee with a really good healing skill for the whole party, but you cant ignore they currently are both.
If crest was just removed it would still be one of the best jobs in the game, thats the crazy part, i think you also need to tune damage of other melee jobs so their rdps is closer to each other. Maybe for reaper fantasy lower the rdps contribution of circle so its clearly more focused on personal dps, i dont know about the specific changes honestly, and i would personally prefer the highest rdps job to be one of the harder ones, which doesnt mean reaper useless and unplayable, just closer to the others.

I am aware that perfect balance is impossible unless complete homogenization happens, but right now it definitely has room for improvement/tightening the margins.

[ssunny2008]

RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.

What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

I want MNK to be nerfed too and i´m an old MNK main so... i would always prefer to keep things UNIQUE but balanced instead of easy and broken. Imo both don´t deserve to be top melee-DPS.

Let´s say 8k DRG, 7,9k SAM / NIN, 7,7k MNK, 7,6k RPR... without AC i would go for 7,7k RPR, but that´s it. If MNK had no Mantra, i would go for 7,8k at best.
You and others might see it opinion-based, but MNK and RPR are way easier to play than the others. They´ve the flow, they´ve only 2 positionals, they´ve like 0 oGCD´s unless your gauge is full, you´ve no real animation stuck, the chance to missplay is ~halved compared to the other melees. And bot have utility,which is not just DPS, imo.
The reason why MNK should be a little bit above RPR is, because you´ve a 6 key rotation you need to adjust and a way shorter buff / Dot timing. RPR on the other hand just have to keep an eye on a 30s buff and should take care that the gauge won´t get overfilled while playing 123.

I get your point, but isn´t everything on DPS classes screaming like "DAMAGE!"? I´m up for class-identity and uniqueness in all ways. I hate homogenization, but it should still be balanced somehow. Not that i would care to be excluded from raids, because i don´t rely on the meta... i just don´t see the need that some classes should´ve everything in their kit, that they make other roles obsolete in some way or that you get "bigger rewards" in kind of DPS for less efford.

?? I don't think I understand what you are saying here, NIN and DRG have a ton of raid utility?

I don´t count raid-damage buffs as utility so far. I would always count it in the average DPS already. They don´t have stuff like AC or Mantra to assist the whole raid in another way but DPS.

I don't agree at all with your opinions, but I hope we can at the very least agree to disagree and let SE do what they feel is best.

Of course.

Don´t get me wrong, i get your and others points. I know it´s often even just about "having fun", which is the most important thing in games and ppl mostly forget it. But since it´s a multiplayer game, you might take fun away from others if stuff isn´t well balanced or changes happen out of nowhere. I lost a lot of fun because MNK and tanks got simplified and homogenized again and again to cater ppl who use them once in a while. But i would never rate "being top DPS" as fun. Big numbers are nothing but scaling. I press that button, my char uses Midare, it makes pewpew, why should i feel good, seriously? Great gameplay shouldn´t defined by some numbers. Of course it can feel great to slaughter everything down, but then i would recommend an ARPG title like Diablo instead of a MMORPG.

[Maverick_Haas]

I am a bit confused by this part, i am pretty sure the fantasy of every melee dps is doing damage, ninja stabs and casts magic, dragoon is shooting dragons and jumping all over the place, samurai does big sword slashes, am i missing something?
...
I am aware that perfect balance is impossible unless complete homogenization happens, but right now it definitely has room for improvement/tightening the margins.

In hindsight, I agree it's silly to say that because, subjectively, I find RPR more badass/appealing that thus should deal more damage. It's not what I was trying to say, but it does come across that way I suppose. But playing the job gives you the perspective that you will deal a lot of damage during burst phase.

Of course tuning is required, and I'm not advocating that RPR be the clear top DPS, but I am trying to prevent it from being the worst dps.

You and others might see it opinion-based, but MNK and RPR are way easier to play than the others.
..
i just don´t see the need that some classes should´ve everything in their kit, that they make other roles obsolete in some way or that you get "bigger rewards" in kind of DPS for less efford.

SE doesn't balance classes on difficulty to play, in fact not many game devs balance on difficulty to play. Years playing mobas have taught me that the difficulty of a hero/champ/avatar doesn't equate to higher performance. Though more difficult classes can have higher performance potential, it's not always the case. Perhaps you could argue that it should, and some part of me would agree with you. After all, I mained BLM for SB and ShB and I did love playing BLM and it's difficulty made it a good challenge for me, and I love the BD dps numbers. But after playing BLM for so long, the difficulty of pulling big numbers became dependent on fight knowledge and just it kinda got... easy after that.

RPR is by no means the hardest job to play, but I don't agree that because it doesn't have a high skill requirement that it should be the lowest DPS. But we could argue all day about skill requirements and what seems fair for DPS, but ultimately I defer to SE's balancing.

Personally, I find RPR to be the most balanced gameplay wise. Also, who's to say the reason RPR feels "easy" is because it was simplified alongside MNK and others? Or at the very least it was designed this way precisely because everything else got simplified. IIRC, yoshi-p stated that RPR was meant to be on par with SAM.

[ssunny2008]

SE doesn't balance classes on difficulty to play, in fact not many game devs balance on difficulty to play. Years playing mobas have taught me that the difficulty of a hero/champ/avatar doesn't equate to higher performance. Though more difficult classes can have higher performance potential, it's not always the case. Perhaps you could argue that it should, and some part of me would agree with you. After all, I mained BLM for SB and ShB and I did love playing BLM and it's difficulty made it a good challenge for me, and I love the BD dps numbers. But after playing BLM for so long, the difficulty of pulling big numbers became dependent on fight knowledge and just it kinda got... easy after that.

RPR is by no means the hardest job to play, but I don't agree that because it doesn't have a high skill requirement that it should be the lowest DPS. But we could argue all day about skill requirements and what seems fair for DPS, but ultimately I defer to SE's balancing.

Personally, I find RPR to be the most balanced gameplay wise. Also, who's to say the reason RPR feels "easy" is because it was simplified alongside MNK and others? Or at the very least it was designed this way precisely because everything else got simplified. IIRC, yoshi-p stated that RPR was meant to be on par with SAM.

Any serious gaming-company will keep "difficulty to execute" somehow in mind for the reasons i´ve already stated: "The average player", "More efford = more reward"

Classes with a higher skill-floor need some space, otherwise "no-expert players" would always underperform an so they gonna rely on easy champs as safer pick. This would make the class somehow "wasted" in its potential and design. Just check out my example on ff.logs. Top RPR and top DRG aren´t so hard away from each other. But DRG is definately harder to execute for a lot of reasons. The further you go down with the percentiles, the bigger the gap will become. And not only to DRG, to any class.
This will automatically lead to the issue one of the following issues:

- If the content is balanced around the top aka RPR / MNK, the most players gonna have trouble to beat the DPS checks unless they stay with RPR or MNK.
or
- If the content is balanced around the average DRG / NIN, RPR and MNK gonna be "easy-mode" for good and expert-players.

We can´t do anything else but keeping class-difficulty in mind and the actual stats speak for themselves. Yes, my inner voice is like "I don´t want to see broken and easy to play stuff at the top.", but just look at the stats, scroll through the stuff on ff.logs. Everything is alerting when we just look completely objective on RPR. MNK and yes, even SAM just follow him.

And i´m pretty sure SE keeps difficulty in mind, just look at the RDPS classes. I highly doubt the next patch will bring them in line or on the top with melees. SMN is easy to execute too now and stucks with them. Don´t know if SE just fckd it up, but in kind of difficulty? Absolutely reasonable to pay an "easy to play / range tax".

I don´t know what you actually mean with "RPR is the most balanced gameplay-wise".


And seriously MOBA´s can´t be counted. I´ve played LoL for years too.

1. PvP and PvE balance work way different.
2. MOBA´s have to mix up their meta again and again to keep things fresh. In MMORPG´s, it´s the boss-content. In MOBA´s the characters are the content.
3. Obviously, atleast 90% of all time, the champs got buffed, which surprisingly became a new skin. And obviously mainstream champions recieved the most skins and are mostly meta.
4. It´s a matter of items. While MMORPG´s have some gear, such gear is mostly shared and / or has atleast similar stats. But items in MOBA´s are there to either counter enemy-abilities or to leave the player the possibility to adjust (crit, flat, tank, support-builds). Of course "BIS" exists too, but it´s not always the best option. There is way more strategy involved based on the enemies, your own teamcomp and how the game is going on.
5. The balance measures around early-, mid- and lategame aswell.

Don´t know if i forgot something at the moment, but it´s definately not comparable. And some form of "harder to execute = more reward" balancing exists there too. Lee Sin and Yasuo, even Bard are the perfect examples.

[Maverick_Haas]

Any serious gaming-company will keep "difficulty to execute" somehow in mind for the reasons i´ve already stated: "The average player", "More efford = more reward"
...
And i´m pretty sure SE keeps difficulty in mind...
I don´t know what you actually mean with "RPR is the most balanced gameplay-wise".
...
And seriously MOBA´s can´t be counted. I´ve played LoL for years too.

Difficulty to execute can be rewarded with many things, but in the case of FFXIV equating difficulty to execute to higher performance (in this case DPS) is problematic in my opinion. This means that unless you are playing that difficult class then you can't compete, so why bother playing any other class? If not for the LB penalty, whole teams would be constructed of SAMs, BLMs, GNBs, and ASTs, perhaps swapping one of the DPS with a token NIN, DRG, or BRD. Not saying every single class needs to be homogenized so it doesn't matter what class you bring, but when you can compete as different classes do you see a different variety of compositions which is what we have. But lets all be honest here, mostly all jobs are not difficult to use. There is a difficulty to get in to, but that's not the same thing as difficulty to use when conditioned. Coming from a BLM main (which is considered by many the most difficult class, though argued that old SMN was more difficult), BLM is not hard once you know a fight, you literally just sit there casting F4 with the occasional UI transition to regen mana.

As for SMN, well I don't play it, but BLM has gotten several simplications with Xeno and reduced sharpcast and 2 triple cast charges and keeps it top DPS bar.

RPR feels balanced in it's approach. It feels smooth and has power to match it's burstiness. This is subjective for me, but it feels like a well designed job.

I brought up mobas because those are the types of games that have more turn over on balance, and even though there are times the meta certainly changes there are still times when you find a spinning Garen coming out of the bush and being completely unable to do anything. But certainly it is a pvp game so the way it's balanced is different with there being a meta of counter picking. But I believe my point still stands, some champs who are easy to play (like Garen) are still viable and can overpower more difficult rated champs. One the otherside of that argument, using HOTS, Abathur is an extremely hard hero to play, and isn't a complete powerhouse. However their usefulness is great via other mechanics when used correctly. But I digress, I understand it's not a 1-to-1 comparison, but I wanted to show that you can have difficult classes that don't directly transition to being top DPS.

I dunno, why haven't we seen a difficult to play utility class/job? Or a hard to play tank? I suppose healers can have some difficulty to them, but anytime difficulty comes up it's always about DPS.

[Scuoll]

Difficulty to execute can be rewarded with many things, but in the case of FFXIV equating difficulty to execute to higher performance (in this case DPS) is problematic in my opinion. This means that unless you are playing that difficult class then you can't compete, so why bother playing any other class? If not for the LB penalty, whole teams would be constructed of SAMs, BLMs, GNBs, and ASTs, perhaps swapping one of the DPS with a token NIN, DRG, or BRD. Not saying every single class needs to be homogenized so it doesn't matter what class you bring, but when you can compete as different classes do you see a different variety of compositions which is what we have. But lets all be honest here, mostly all jobs are not difficult to use. There is a difficulty to get in to, but that's not the same thing as difficulty to use when conditioned. Coming from a BLM main (which is considered by many the most difficult class, though argued that old SMN was more difficult), BLM is not hard once you know a fight, you literally just sit there casting F4 with the occasional UI transition to regen mana.

As for SMN, well I don't play it, but BLM has gotten several simplications with Xeno and reduced sharpcast and 2 triple cast charges and keeps it top DPS bar.

RPR feels balanced in it's approach. It feels smooth and has power to match it's burstiness. This is subjective for me, but it feels like a well designed job.

I understand what you are saying and i somewhat agree, that overall you shouldnt be forced to play the harder classes to get better results, and that balance should be tighter in general so that you can play whatever without huge discrepancies in performance.

However i also do think that the current situation is even worse that the hypothetical scenario where difficulty rewards you with higher numbers , having the easier class be the one that excels at everything, by your own logic, players that want to perform the best should be looking to swap to reaper right now, and getting better results for less effort just feels sort of cheap?
I agree neither is desirable though.

I am newish to the game and i have really no clue if the devs have someone read these posts and relay it to them, especially during the holidays, but i think a general sentiment most people can get behind is that people dont want to feel like they are being punished arbirtrarily for not playing a clear cut superior option, and right now because of several reasons, odds are the average player will perform way better on reaper than the other melees.

[CKNovel]

Difficulty to execute can be rewarded with many things, but in the case of FFXIV equating difficulty to execute to higher performance (in this case DPS) is problematic in my opinion..

Yes, completely.
DPS only serves to beat enrage and to speedkill. If you struggle with a clear, it's about execution, if you can't execute the tier properly then you will have to rely on the tomestones gear.
Especially with tomestones weapons much more accessible.

SMN is a great example. RDM is not excessively hard to play, yet SMN is far below RDM. Considering SMN healing is limited and RDM can res as it wants, why should you bring a SMN over a RDM?
SMN is simply never rewarded for their efforts while the RDM is despite them being on a low complexity level.
It's also a problem with the ranged role. MCH only brings damage, BRD and DNC can assist much more to the team survival. In the current state, why should you even consider bringing a MCH?

Obviously the answer to both questions is because people play the job they want and that in the end, DPS doesn't matter. But if DPS doesn't matter, then there is no problem with buffing certain jobs.
You still need a balance a bit, otherwise if healer or tank would do as much damage as the DPS, you would see these roles replacing the DPS.
On top of that, difficulty based on the role varies a lot , look at P1 and P2, damn big hitboxes and free positionnals on P2. We also had E3S and E7S with no positionnals and big hitboxes, E12S with massive hitboxes.

[Kazimere]

Dragoon is in no way shape or form hard to play. The fact that you have some weaves between the 2.45-2.48 gcd it’s running doesn’t make it so. Ninja is not hard to play. None of the melee are hard to play. The skill representation for melee is in uptime and being able to maintain your rotation during mechanics. For reaper, who doesn’t really have a rotation, it is in properly setting up your burst windows for the encounter. It is what their DPS relies on. Shrouding whenever it’s available is not how to properly play it usually. There is a lot of risk in that, because its shrouded abilities comprise the majority of its DPS.

People keep bitching about reaper and it’s likely the more fine tuned job at the moment. It’s kit is also solid, but not perfect. People bitching about AC like reapers are using it to help the raid usually. They aren’t. The ones who are using it often are primarily using it to allow themselves to eat certain mechanics to maintain uptime.