So you're telling me..

[Misutoraru]

MNK, RPR, NIN, DRG should all be in similar DPS ranges with the only variations being their rDPS due to raid utilities. The only reason SAM should be the top is because they only bring DPS and have no raid utilities. To say a job should have lower DPS because its "easier" to play is absolutely ridiculous and no sane person would quantify class balance with how easy or difficult a class is to play.

Oh and MNK's positionals are not coming back, so give up on that argument.

This,
Generally speaking, I can understand range doing a bit less dmg than melee, All in the name of uptime.
On top of that having team buff should do less damage than “selfish” dps. Difficult should never be a parameter, not only it is subjective, lack of proper way to gauge difficulty, also given content are design around every job could clear it, having a job doing more dmg because of “difficulty” is going to lead to exclusion of job. Those job exclusion back in old time FFXIV need not back

[ssunny2008]

This,
Generally speaking, I can understand range doing a bit less dmg than melee, All in the name of uptime.
On top of that having team buff should do less damage than “selfish” dps. Difficult should never be a parameter, not only it is subjective, lack of proper way to gauge difficulty, also given content are design around every job could clear it, having a job doing more dmg because of “difficulty” is going to lead to exclusion of job. Those job exclusion back in old time FFXIV need not back

BLM has been top DPS in Shb, but it was still as unpopular as MNK has been, just because it´s somehow special to play to perform well.

The argument "job-exclusion" lacks hard in this game, the most play whatever they want and the most don´t care about meta-stuff. Obviously the most prefer to stay on simple jobs like RPR, SMN or DNC.
It doesn´t make sense that more difficult jobs shouldn´t have a bit of a comfort-zone. It´s actually an accomodating factor towards casuals / not so good players. Otherwise they would´ve hard times to clear harder content with their favorite class (e.g. SAM).
On the other hand it´s a reward for those who beat the class challenge and that´s important.

(Imo it would go more the way that ppl rely on easy to go classes, if they´ve similar or more damage than mroe difficult ones.)

[Misutoraru]

I see a lot of fearmongering around '' exclusion of Jobs '' all the time and it has never been true.
Not even the top players care that much about it there's a ton of world first clears with '' non-Meta '' parties.

I was a problem back in ARR when running coil. There was a time party running double bard because their song could stack, and. I have seen no XXX job when balance was only slightly out of hand. Experience all those in Aegis, a JP DC, would expect worse in NA or EU.

Again when there isn’t a proper tool to measure difficulty (it probably vary fight to fight), difficulty should be out of the equation. Only taken party buff, and mobility/uptime into account

[Ransu]

I was a problem back in ARR when running coil. There was a time party running double bard because their song could stack, and. I have seen no XXX job when balance was only slightly out of hand. Experience all those in Aegis, a JP DC, would expect worse in NA or EU.

Again when there isn’t a proper tool to measure difficulty (it probably vary fight to fight), difficulty should be out of the equation. Only taken party buff, and mobility/uptime into account

Yes, this is the reason they started tightening windows and making jobs so similar. Yoshi P saw that culture of party's outright banning jobs from groups and he changed course on balancing.

[Evos]

Chances are that you don't.
I played NIN when it came out and NIN always had Trick Attack.

Granted Trick Attack has become more standardized with time but I dunno if you're under the impression that it's a more recent thing than it actually is.

The ninja point concerned the sudden need to line everything with trick as like the only optimal path (I played it upon release as well). Ninja became a large focus in raiding (nearly locking it in). Outside of ninja some jobs had different cds for damage increase/ogcds (drg for example) which required planning with different fights. The need to "fit into trick attack" as a metric for opinions of burst design was very frequent.

More recently, im referring to alot of jobs cds coming down to 60s with no punishment for drifts or accounting for it. In the past, You could line up cds at burst's but than know it won't be up at 60s everytime. But I understand that the whole point was the initial burst.

Now we know nearly every job is going to burst at the same intervals. My point is not that this is good or bad but that alot of designs are just getting easier to plan for the sake of..... Um easing optimization. Iron out the wrinkles because those old cds were outdated despite persisting for a long time I guess. Was that part of class design or simply went unnoticed the whole time.

And yes memory is a fickle thing I agree.

[Evos]

Did RPR somehow bridge a new gap in design and player skill level despite it's systems.

We know RPR has a lot off different systems interacting and now, aside from potency adjust ment, are we saying that a greater number of players can handle this design type? Or is it just the "how" we implement already " standardized systems (build and dump, procs, guage use). Are we willing to give, as some pointed out, SAM or BLM some small level of raid utility to expand job design (even if small or does not apply to self)? Will that end the debate? Are we so content with "our" current assessments of balance "should be" like this and constrain creativity.

Perhaps there is enthusiasm towards this type of design (system interactions) and no more need to simplify battle designs because "players can't handle that many things". Perhaps we will have people say that "it's still very easy design" but I feel like it opens doors in future jobs.

Than again we can still insist in this case that RPR's interactions themselves are shallow. But where do we want RPR in terms of easy vs hard and job design?

Some are using the utility vs pure damage argument. But do we run the risk of eventually saying why am I doing all these inputs to do SMN/RDM level of dps? Are we saying the current apm or effort warrants a certain ranking amongst dps despite the utility argument?

Ease of play and damage out. Delete the utility and we good? Or will we argue simplicity after that?

I don't want to change the subject.
But reading the responses makes me think about various ways we try to prevent simplicity but fail due to what we critic in design for the sake of "proper structures" and rankings.

[Lyth]

This is my first expansion back on melee dps in a long time, but haven't all of them undergone massive simplifications? I'm particularly intrigued as to how MNK, after roughly fourteen thousand reworks has come full circle as a faithful reproduction of the ARR version, except with next to no positionals, no GL, and the Steel Peak/Howling Fist equivalents sharing a cooldown. I think when you sift through the fluff and artificial APM inflating effects on these jobs (let's press four buttons in sequence to perform one action!) you actually find that there really aren't all that many things to track or decision timepoints on any of these jobs. The primary consideration on all of these jobs is going to be on how to glue yourself to the boss while dancing with death. I'd be surprised if you struggle on rotation decisions on any of these.

I am a fan of GCD based speedboosts, and I will say that I would love to see more forays into RPR's 1.5s GCD with future melee dps jobs. It's a pity that we don't really look at the rate of change/first derivative of APM, simply because most jobs are defined rotationally by what happens during burst and not based off of the global average. I'd also love to see more of a focus on precision movement actions like Ingress/Egress and Shukuchi, because that's where I think the role's true skill ceiling lies.

[Kazimere]

This is my first expansion back on melee dps in a long time, but haven't all of them undergone massive simplifications? I'm particularly intrigued as to how MNK, after roughly fourteen thousand reworks has come full circle as a faithful reproduction of the ARR version, except with next to no positionals, no GL, and the Steel Peak/Howling Fist equivalents sharing a cooldown. I think when you sift through the fluff and artificial APM inflating effects on these jobs (let's press four buttons in sequence to perform one action!) you actually find that there really aren't all that many things to track or decision timepoints on any of these jobs. The primary consideration on all of these jobs is going to be on how to glue yourself to the boss while dancing with death. I'd be surprised if you struggle on rotation decisions on any of these.

I am a fan of GCD based speedboosts, and I will say that I would love to see more forays into RPR's 1.5s GCD with future melee dps jobs. It's a pity that we don't really look at the rate of change/first derivative of APM, simply because most jobs are defined rotationally by what happens during burst and not based off of the global average. I'd also love to see more of a focus on precision movement actions like Ingress/Egress and Shukuchi, because that's where I think the role's true skill ceiling lies.

Pft, ain’t got no time for egress. Pop AC and eat the mechanic!

[Kolsykol]

No one is saying Reaper should do 2k less dps and just because people are talking about it doesn't mean that it's '' whining ''.
By that same logic you're whining about people whining.

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean that they're whining.

[Maverick_Haas]

No one is saying Reaper should do 2k less dps and just because people are talking about it doesn't mean that it's '' whining ''.
By that same logic you're whining about people whining.

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean that they're whining.

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.