Let's talk Scholar: Changes, Class fantasy and Abilities

[Brandedblade]

I've played in groups at all levels from those chasing world prog rankings down to casual retirement home tier teams. At all levels of play it's always been an amusing little highlight when the SCH has managed to 0 damage a raid bosses big intermission AoE. Does it really have any bearing on the fight? No. Does it put a grin on faces? I think so at least.

It's one of those increasingly rare cases where you can feel like you've had an actual impact without needing to have a group that's tripping over their own feet to get your time to shine.

Still is amusing the the you can do as a scholar that makes you feel like a massive badass involves casting an evil evil little gcd heal tho.

[Halfgeeek]

Both EX trials have been completed without a single healer. And with 2 healers they are very easy to do without using anything but free OGCDs. GCD heals haven't been important since before the last expansion.

When you play with a great group as a healer, you're rewarded with higher DPS potential because you do not need to heal as much/often. This isn't any different to other healers, for example, WHM and their lilies.

On SGE, their complaint is that their MP is tied to their healing, and when its not required, they still have to bust it out anyway and overheal, feeling like they wasted resources.

We've discussed these things in the past, the healer design that requires more healing is only applicable in random pug/DF. In statics and such, DPS matters more, and because ED still exist and with 1.5s broils, it allows for SCH to chase after higher numbers at the expense of healing, which isn't required when the grp plays well so there's no loss.

[Tobalito]

Sounds fun! You could make it more interesting and similar to Banner of Noble Ends: healing is reduced, but you get a damage buff and a Blood Lily. Could be your burst phase you want to pair with PoM to fit as many Glares as possible, Assize and a Misery. It's a pity the playerbase seems to be so averse to risky gameplay, tanks and healers could get more fun to play and get interesting skills...

Things like this are easy to say in a bubble. Just a reminder that while this sounds like great optimization, it wouldn't be a dps gain from what you currently get with WHM in implementation.

Nerfing healing to get more dmg sounds soo good and it feels great... when it's an actual dps gain. In reality, your healing would get nerfed, and your damage would get nerfed to account for said burst by SE standards.

All that optimization would get you is a lack out from your heals... like what scholars suffer from.

People use 3rd party as proof that Scholar is #2rdps but no one looks a little further to see what that spot costs a scholar.

Optimization comes at a heavy price and those #2rdps comes at exclusive use of ED for ALL of your AF, including Dissipation. So what happens when Zodiark opens with 1 hp attack and then continuous stack and you put a SCH vs. SGE?

The #2 SCH sacrifices all healing and fairy abilities to "Optimize" and get as many ED in CS as they can.

The SGE sacrifices 0 healing, and still emerges the victor... that doesn't sound a little shitty to anyone else?

[Sylvant]

Sounds fun! You could make it more interesting and similar to Banner of Noble Ends: healing is reduced, but you get a damage buff and a Blood Lily. Could be your burst phase you want to pair with PoM to fit as many Glares as possible, Assize and a Misery. It's a pity the playerbase seems to be so averse to risky gameplay, tanks and healers could get more fun to play and get interesting skills...

Well, yeah. That was aptly named Cleric Stance before it was removed (both iterations). It caused more problems than it should have with players who weren't as familiar with the role or their specific job. While the dps potential was nice, it had an overall negative impact any other time, especially back when it was a toggled ability. Even the best players could forget to turn it off and end up wiping the party. This is the whole reason healer damage was converted to MND instead of INT way back when.

Additionally, healers can add to burst windows (Divination, Cards, Chain Strat), but giving them burst and rotations to the same extent as a DPS or Tank is problematic; it incentivizes dealing damage over healing. While that wouldn't be a problem for people who live and breath high-end content and know how to utilize their ogcds to compensate, it would make things more difficult for anybody else. That resulting in reduced accessibility in favor of complexity, which is a mentality the devs have moved away from.

[Halfgeeek]

People use 3rd party as proof that Scholar is #2rdps but no one looks a little further to see what that spot costs a scholar.

This is an example of optimal SCH in the current EX. Most of the AF is used on ED, however, AF heals (Indom & Soil) are still used when required, while the Fairy is doing the heavy lifting, particularly Seraph when required (Phobos).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRnxxWgM2mM

Anymore AF healing than required is just wasted overheal. Is it shitty vs SGE that don't get this opportunity to optimize heal vs dps? I mean both are fine healers, probably the meta comp. If we must compare rDPS, being #2 at early in the cycle isn't that bad given SCH scales better on rDPS as gear improves.

For the vast majority of the SCH playerbase, they shouldn't worry about must not healing to blow AF on ED for 100 potency. Heal as deemed fit, and if there's any AF left when its ready again, then dump on ED or Excog.

[WaxSw]

This is an example of optimal SCH in the current EX. Most of the AF is used on ED, however, AF heals (Indom & Soil) are still used when required, while the Fairy is doing the heavy lifting, particularly Seraph when required (Phobos).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRnxxWgM2mM

Anymore AF healing than required is just wasted overheal. Is it shitty vs SGE that don't get this opportunity to optimize heal vs dps? I mean both are fine healers, probably the meta comp. If we must compare rDPS, being #2 at early in the cycle isn't that bad given SCH scales better on rDPS as gear improves.

For the vast majority of the SCH playerbase, they shouldn't worry about must not healing to blow AF on ED for 100 potency. Heal as deemed fit, and if there's any AF left when its ready again, then dump on ED or Excog.

The problem is how the mechanic is designed. Aetherflow as mechanic is designed with the idea of rewarding Sch with both damage and heals but in practice as both share resources and are given upfront it punishes Sch for engaging with one of its main healing systems (in a similar way Whm does) resulting in a job that doesnt really feel good especially when damage goes high, because instead of having a cohesive kit to tackle a variety of situations with synergies and such you just have a "good" healing system (non aetherflow ogcds and fairy) and the shitty healing system (Aetherflow) that you wanna minimize its uses. This situation is especially bad if we remember one of the excuses for gutting Sch in Shb was because in the (wrong) view of the devs they were chadding their cohealers while at the same time they've designed a system that makes Sch depend on their cohealer now more than ever

[Halfgeeek]

The problem is how the mechanic is designed. Aetherflow as mechanic is designed with the idea of rewarding Sch with both damage and heals but in practice as both share resources and are given upfront it punishes Sch for engaging with one of its main healing systems (in a similar way Whm does) resulting in a job that doesnt really feel good especially when damage goes high, because instead of having a cohesive kit to tackle a variety of situations with synergies and such you just have a "good" healing system (non aetherflow ogcds and fairy) and the shitty healing system (Aetherflow) that you wanna minimize its uses.

AF is not designed to reward SCH with both healing & dmg. It's healing OR damage.

Pick one, as the situation allows it. If your group is less experienced, you will need more healing on AF. While when your group is good, you can chase after higher DPS.

Thus, SCH personal DPS relies partially on how well the group plays. Reminds you of our core buff, Chain Strat? How good that is depends heavily on how good the group is.

The alternative is SGE, with higher personal potencies, that is less group dependent and lacking in group DPS buffs, doing the heavy lifting themselves.

Which one you or I prefer, is subjective and personal.

The last thing I would want, is more homogenization.

[Tobalito]

AF is not designed to reward SCH with both healing & dmg. It's healing OR damage.

Pick one, as the situation allows it. If your group is less experienced, you will need more healing on AF. While when your group is good, you can chase after higher DPS.

Thus, SCH personal DPS relies partially on how well the group plays. Reminds you of our core buff, Chain Strat? How good that is depends heavily on how good the group is.

The alternative is SGE, with higher personal potencies, that is less group dependent and lacking in group DPS buffs, doing the heavy lifting themselves.

Which one you or I prefer, is subjective and personal.

The last thing I would want, is more homogenization.

Higher personal and Rdps according to how well it does. Also comparing the use of CS to "depending on teammates to heal" are 2 different things entirely.

Either way we could go back and forth on this but the reality is we aren't gonna change each other's minds.

Homogonization doesn't need to require punishing one job for the sole purpose of it being different than the other.

[Halfgeeek]

Higher personal and Rdps according to how well it does. Also comparing the use of CS to "depending on teammates to heal" are 2 different things entirely.

Either way we could go back and forth on this but the reality is we aren't gonna change each other's minds.

Homogonization doesn't need to require punishing one job for the sole purpose of it being different than the other.

I don't feel like SCH is being punished.

It's good that it has to make these choices, just like Dissipation is a great ability when used well, despite the loud feedback on forums that it's an awful skill that makes the job fight itself, locking out on abilities, etc.

This is why I dislike playing SGE. Its Adersgall spender is brain dead. In fact when the healing isn't needed, you still have to spend it to get 7% MP back. It feels bad sitting on the stacks with nothing to dump it on.

Toxicon could have been heaps better as an oGCD to reward Euk Diag barrier breaking, now it's a glorified movement tool..

[WaxSw]

AF is not designed to reward SCH with both healing & dmg. It's healing OR damage.

Pick one, as the situation allows it. If your group is less experienced, you will need more healing on AF. While when your group is good, you can chase after higher DPS.

Thus, SCH personal DPS relies partially on how well the group plays. Reminds you of our core buff, Chain Strat? How good that is depends heavily on how good the group is.

The alternative is SGE, with higher personal potencies, that is less group dependent and lacking in group DPS buffs, doing the heavy lifting themselves.

Which one you or I prefer, is subjective and personal.

The last thing I would want, is more homogenization.

I didnt say a reward in the way it gives both but as in the way that it gives resources for both, wrong use of english from my part but the problem is, as you've said when the group is good you can go after higher dps hence punishing the Sch for mistakes other people make as no matter how well you play a bad group or a subpar cohealer will punish your personal dps, yes we could argue that due to the nature of gcd heals every healer share that trait but only Sch and Whm have that loss tied to their core systems.

This is not only detrimental in landscape where there are already healers whose core mechanics either rewards them always (ast cards) or simply doesn't punish them (sge addersgall) as in order to optimize it creates dependence on those cohealers making one of them do a heavier lifting than the other but also from a design perspective is kinda stupid, instead of designing the job around rewards for doing their job well and interact with the systems (like for example how the dps/tank classes get some of their stronger moves by doing properly their job mechanics) its designed around patching the loses interacting with said systems create, if a dps/tank is like creating a building Sch and Whm (with some aoe exceptions) are like trying to touch said bulding as little as possible to keep them from crumbling down, needless to say which one of the two is the satisfying one and which one is the punishing one.

Also having proper systems does not mean homogenizations, there has been dozens of ideas for better mechanics around here all of them different and centered about rewarding the player not punishing them

As for the dissipation button is not a great skill imo, it buffs the heals that doesnt give resource to and removes the fairy which is a more optimal way of healing, its healing design is all over the place and as such only works properly as a dps gain meaning in 99% of the cases is just a 300 potency ogcd (the 3 EDs) that you press on cd or nearly on cd, considering how Sch used to have different fairies or how they've been already playing with 0 cost AE heals with recitation the fact that the skill is unchanged for over 2 years is laughable.