So you're telling me..

[Maverick_Haas]

What I love about this thread. Arcane crest is still a focus. Please SE, take the nerf hammer to arcane crest. Remove it completely! This is what the people are calling for, it’s for balancing reasons! Reapers healing is too strong for one doing so much damage!

Actually, looking further into it, MNK's mantra is equal if not absolutely better than Arcane Crest. It's a 10% increased healing to self and nearby members for 15 seconds. It doesn't heal directly, but the increase of healing received is certainly more than 100 potency. Yet, I don't see anyone raging over this and asking for extreme nerfs... Why not? Because Mantra healing numbers do not show up in fflogs like crest does. MNKs don't get credit for the increased healing on fflogs, you would have to look at the individual players and see when Mantra was applied and how much healing was increased then.

So I chalk this up to people not knowing what they are talking about, but still asking for extreme nerfs because they have some notion of what balance is.

[Ramura_Sono]

Actually, looking further into it, MNK's mantra is equal if not absolutely better than Arcane Crest. It's a 10% increased healing to self and nearby members for 15 seconds. It doesn't heal directly, but the increase of healing received is certainly more than 100 potency. Yet, I don't see anyone raging over this and asking for extreme nerfs... Why not? Because Mantra healing numbers do not show up in fflogs like crest does. MNKs don't get credit for the increased healing on fflogs, you would have to look at the individual players and see when Mantra was applied and how much healing was increased then.

So I chalk this up to people not knowing what they are talking about, but still asking for extreme nerfs because they have some notion of what balance is.

For Mantra to equal the value of Arcane Crest, you'd need something like 5000 potency worth of heals going out. It is absolutely not better than Arcane Crest. Arcane Crest is a 500 Potency Heal over it's duration. The HoT ticks once every 3 seconds. so it Ticks for 100 potency 5 times during it's duration.

Arcane Crest is better than Curing Waltz, and other similar partywide defensives that are on much longer cooldowns.
It's heal potency needs to be severely reduced. Likely by 50% or more if it's gonna keep it's 30 second cooldown.

[ZiraZ]

Actually, looking further into it, MNK's mantra is equal if not absolutely better than Arcane Crest. It's a 10% increased healing to self and nearby members for 15 seconds. It doesn't heal directly, but the increase of healing received is certainly more than 100 potency. Yet, I don't see anyone raging over this and asking for extreme nerfs... Why not? Because Mantra healing numbers do not show up in fflogs like crest does. MNKs don't get credit for the increased healing on fflogs, you would have to look at the individual players and see when Mantra was applied and how much healing was increased then.

So I chalk this up to people not knowing what they are talking about, but still asking for extreme nerfs because they have some notion of what balance is.

the irony and the bias is incredible

[ssunny2008]

Actually, looking further into it, MNK's mantra is equal if not absolutely better than Arcane Crest. It's a 10% increased healing to self and nearby members for 15 seconds. It doesn't heal directly, but the increase of healing received is certainly more than 100 potency. Yet, I don't see anyone raging over this and asking for extreme nerfs... Why not? Because Mantra healing numbers do not show up in fflogs like crest does. MNKs don't get credit for the increased healing on fflogs, you would have to look at the individual players and see when Mantra was applied and how much healing was increased then.

So I chalk this up to people not knowing what they are talking about, but still asking for extreme nerfs because they have some notion of what balance is.

To have heal which is an easy solo-executive passiv for the whole group is something different than having a little buff to assist the healers. In kind of Mantra it´s mostly going into overheal pretty quickly, meanwhile Arcane Crest is able to make healer-buttons obsolete, especially regen ones.
And while Ramura already did some math, Mantra sits on a 90s cd, meanwhile AC has a 30s one. This means Mantra... under perfect circumstances... needs some heals with 15 000 potency to be as useful as AC would be under perfect circumstances. So yeah... it´s not that hard to get behind the differences.

Who knew all the other melee were so difficult to play. Lol self serving arguments can't be taken very serious. Easy or difficult is....say it with me....subjective.

It´s still not subjective to compare stuff like:

- utility and its use
- the amount of buttons you need to do X damage
- circumstances like positionals, animationslocks, double-weaving
- the possibilities to missplay / to lose uptime

And that we´re at a point where everything got homogenized and simplified into nowhere, is a reason because every 2nd thread is like:

- Summoner QoL
- MNK positionals suck, MNK GL sucks, MNK generally sucks, but i don´t play it.
- DRK isn´t as strong as WAR in self-sustain, please buff
- Why is RDM stronger than SAM?
- "So SE, we need to talk about class XYZ again..."

Stuff coming from ppl, who has either no clue about the classes and don´t think about the consequences of their wishes or from those who wants everything to be perfect aligned and every niche-button deleted. Nothing but bs.

But, I can't figure out why we're having this discussion. Damage meters mean nothing. We aren't supposed to even use them. It's a bannable offense.
Furthermore, your average player doesn't care. They just want to clear the content and have fun.

You gotta have fun to one-shot everything, because it means nothing? It would be a blast the first time like "wtf" and become boring very quickly. Casuals may don´t care, but only because they don´t know how important balancing is in any game to keep it attractive and guarantee longevity.

SE is doing there math or using them too in the internal testing. It´s not possible to keep the game-balance without such things.
And it SE would really care about all the bannable stuff out there, they would´ve closed diverse internet-sites and banned half the playerbase already. But they don´t care, because it would last in less money. More than enough ppl use ACT, bots and even the 2nd launcher with the housing and glam options. They could open the market-board and they would find a lot of mainaccounts abusing farmbots. But they just don´t give af. Don´t know if their "terminated accounts" message every couple weeks is a lie or JP exclusive.

Don´t be an ass ingame about numbers and all is fine.

[Evos]

@ssunny2008
"utility and its use
- the amount of buttons you need to do X damage
- circumstances like positionals, animationslocks, double-weaving
- the possibilities to missplay / to lose uptime"

This I can understand, and mostly agree to all the defined points.

However, to arguments about utility, this is a bit of an issue if you value unique differences or mechanics that a single job can bring to a team. If you don't enjoy differences between jobs we quickly find ourselves back to discusing having equitable standard(s) skills of same or similar function across the roles. The later is what I feel we are in now considering the comparison between non-healer jobs bringing hps to a group. Now we feel the need to find imbalance or equitable skills (Mantra, phoenix flame regen) and balance them. Why because it's "to useful and I can't/my job can't do such well/as good.

This is fine until you realize as you said the impact of this repeated cycle on the balance process. The devs look at the constant need to address these player specific concerns and they just remove the situation altogether. In the end only certain values are satisfied and the other just as important values (of battle design) held across the playerbase is nulled.

We just can't have it all unless we are willing to give up certain things that my or their job can or cannot do. Funny because we the player base have access to all the classes lol. Yet we actively hinder our own jobs.

The other points other than animation locks and forced to double weave (probably forced downtime) can have similar arguments made. They lead to the dev(s) either trying to address every subjective value or making it easy for themselves by removing or in this case, giving out the equivalent of roles skills without actually just placing these skills in the role skills system. Do we now want a regen party role skill as well.

Lastly, yes no one wants broken skills but I'm pretty sure that will be easily visible to the devs if and only if it falls outside of their intended parameters.

[Scuoll]

However, to arguments about utility, this is a bit of an issue if you value unique differences or mechanics that a single job can bring to a team. If you don't enjoy differences between jobs we quickly find ourselves back to discusing having equitable standard(s) skills of same or similar function across the roles. The later is what I feel we are in now considering the comparison between non-healer jobs bringing hps to a group. Now we feel the need to find imbalance or equitable skills (Mantra, phoenix flame regen) and balance them. Why because it's "to useful and I can't/my job can't do such well/as good.

This is fine until you realize as you said the impact of this repeated cycle on the balance process. The devs look at the constant need to address these player specific concerns and they just remove the situation altogether. In the end only certain values are satisfied and the other just as important values (of battle design) held across the playerbase is nulled.

We just can't have it all unless we are willing to give up certain things that my or their job can or cannot do. Funny because we the player base have access to all the classes lol. Yet we actively hinder our own jobs.

The other points other than animation locks and forced to double weave (probably forced downtime) can have similar arguments made. They lead to the dev(s) either trying to address every subjective value or making it easy for themselves by removing or in this case, giving out the equivalent of roles skills without actually just placing these skills in the role skills system. Do we now want a regen party role skill as well.

You know, i kinda agree with the idea that having access to different utility tools on dps classes is a good thing for the game, makes for more variety and it gives room to different classes to shine on different occasions, however, as it is currently implemented, it is not.

You say things like "you should be willing to accept there are certain things my job cannot do" which is alright, if there are other things it excels at, as it is right now one class has all of the best options with none of the downsides, and that just cant be good.

As it is right now, this kind of utility is so rare, which makes it way more valuable, and there are not any alternatives, there is no choice if its a single skill on a single job, which also happens to do the most damage.

If long-term, you are going to be able to make the decision : can i go reaper for arcane crest healing or some other class with a comparable skill, then sure, i think that's better for the game, but you cant argue its good right now if several classes are arbitrarily shafted.
Also, the fact that we have access to all jobs doesnt mean its ok if they make one way better than the others, that is just plain stupid, people may not like that one job's playstyle,looks,fantasy, whatever it is, its not a good excuse for poor balance.