So you're telling me..

[ssunny2008]

Funny thing about this thread. Reaper isn’t the top parser. It’s just the most represented

We already had this, you can´t just go there and be like "A handful of ppl outparse RPR on MNK or any other class". That´s not countable. Even someone with a parse of 70 might play his class perfectly, but just sit on a low parse because he has no gear, a bad group, whatever.
You´ve to look at the average across the board and away from 99 / 100 parses where MNK is a bit higher, everything from 0-98 is up to RPR. And the lower the parse-percentage goes, the tougher is RPR against everyone else on the level. On top RPR has more than the double amount of parses than MNK.

I´m a MNK main and i want it to be nerfed, that´s sure. MNK is easy to play and has some utility. It needs to be on the 3rd or 4th spot in kind of DPS in the melee category until they finally bring positionals back.
But RPR needs a harder nerf. It´s braindead to play and has even better utility. It doesn´t deserve to put out more damage than any other melee with a low skill floor and low skill ceiling. The statistics show nothing else than that.

[Evos]

@ssunny2008
"utility and its use
- the amount of buttons you need to do X damage
- circumstances like positionals, animationslocks, double-weaving
- the possibilities to missplay / to lose uptime"

This I can understand, and mostly agree to all the defined points.

However, to arguments about utility, this is a bit of an issue if you value unique differences or mechanics that a single job can bring to a team. If you don't enjoy differences between jobs we quickly find ourselves back to discusing having equitable standard(s) skills of same or similar function across the roles. The later is what I feel we are in now considering the comparison between non-healer jobs bringing hps to a group. Now we feel the need to find imbalance or equitable skills (Mantra, phoenix flame regen) and balance them. Why because it's "to useful and I can't/my job can't do such well/as good.

This is fine until you realize as you said the impact of this repeated cycle on the balance process. The devs look at the constant need to address these player specific concerns and they just remove the situation altogether. In the end only certain values are satisfied and the other just as important values (of battle design) held across the playerbase is nulled.

We just can't have it all unless we are willing to give up certain things that my or their job can or cannot do. Funny because we the player base have access to all the classes lol. Yet we actively hinder our own jobs.

The other points other than animation locks and forced to double weave (probably forced downtime) can have similar arguments made. They lead to the dev(s) either trying to address every subjective value or making it easy for themselves by removing or in this case, giving out the equivalent of roles skills without actually just placing these skills in the role skills system. Do we now want a regen party role skill as well.

Lastly, yes no one wants broken skills but I'm pretty sure that will be easily visible to the devs if and only if it falls outside of their intended parameters.

[Evos]

To address specifically the case of doing X number of inputs to do Y amount of total dps as another job.

Here we see that if job A needs to do 5 gcds for (1000) dps but job B needs only 2 an issue of imbalance in effort for outcome starts to emerge. Quick math with help us point out the objective and somehow unfair differences.

This argument becomes a redundant cycle of comparisons because we are now reductively turning all similar category skills inputs to only (objective) outcomes without realizing something important the subjective experience and accessibility for the playerbase.

The reason we keep seeing the skill floors raised and or ceilings lowerd is because some players (jobs) need to be able to do X amount of damage for less inputs for close or equal output (to not be a detriment). Why because it is intentional for accessibility.

In other ways it makes design easier. Also note the use of potency redistribution which allows the designer to track and predict the outputs. Most notably to constrain dps to an intended number of buttons but allow an experience based on said total number of inputs. To some that experience can be a single input or multiple from a combo set.

Thus, some like seeing a series of animations while others think it's more efficient to just do the one input (some see redundancy, others see an interesting series of skills-all set to intended outputs). Where does this argument end...I don't think it can because we are mixing objective design metrics with subjective interests.

When we forget this it makes no since (is not fair) why I can play a brain dead class and have such high output but when I play this class I need to do so much more inputs for similar or subpar output. The answer...from a design perspective...its complicated. We can't have it all but that won't stop us from trying lol. Argue away friends...argue until we/you get what we/you want. Such is the nature of this game I guess as oppose to you know fun.

[Scuoll]

However, to arguments about utility, this is a bit of an issue if you value unique differences or mechanics that a single job can bring to a team. If you don't enjoy differences between jobs we quickly find ourselves back to discusing having equitable standard(s) skills of same or similar function across the roles. The later is what I feel we are in now considering the comparison between non-healer jobs bringing hps to a group. Now we feel the need to find imbalance or equitable skills (Mantra, phoenix flame regen) and balance them. Why because it's "to useful and I can't/my job can't do such well/as good.

This is fine until you realize as you said the impact of this repeated cycle on the balance process. The devs look at the constant need to address these player specific concerns and they just remove the situation altogether. In the end only certain values are satisfied and the other just as important values (of battle design) held across the playerbase is nulled.

We just can't have it all unless we are willing to give up certain things that my or their job can or cannot do. Funny because we the player base have access to all the classes lol. Yet we actively hinder our own jobs.

The other points other than animation locks and forced to double weave (probably forced downtime) can have similar arguments made. They lead to the dev(s) either trying to address every subjective value or making it easy for themselves by removing or in this case, giving out the equivalent of roles skills without actually just placing these skills in the role skills system. Do we now want a regen party role skill as well.

You know, i kinda agree with the idea that having access to different utility tools on dps classes is a good thing for the game, makes for more variety and it gives room to different classes to shine on different occasions, however, as it is currently implemented, it is not.

You say things like "you should be willing to accept there are certain things my job cannot do" which is alright, if there are other things it excels at, as it is right now one class has all of the best options with none of the downsides, and that just cant be good.

As it is right now, this kind of utility is so rare, which makes it way more valuable, and there are not any alternatives, there is no choice if its a single skill on a single job, which also happens to do the most damage.

If long-term, you are going to be able to make the decision : can i go reaper for arcane crest healing or some other class with a comparable skill, then sure, i think that's better for the game, but you cant argue its good right now if several classes are arbitrarily shafted.
Also, the fact that we have access to all jobs doesnt mean its ok if they make one way better than the others, that is just plain stupid, people may not like that one job's playstyle,looks,fantasy, whatever it is, its not a good excuse for poor balance.

[Ransu]

We already had this, you can´t just go there and be like "A handful of ppl outparse RPR on MNK or any other class". That´s not countable. Even someone with a parse of 70 might play his class perfectly, but just sit on a low parse because he has no gear, a bad group, whatever.
You´ve to look at the average across the board and away from 99 / 100 parses where MNK is a bit higher, everything from 0-98 is up to RPR. And the lower the parse-percentage goes, the tougher is RPR against everyone else on the level. On top RPR has more than the double amount of parses than MNK.

I´m a MNK main and i want it to be nerfed, that´s sure. MNK is easy to play and has some utility. It needs to be on the 3rd or 4th spot in kind of DPS in the melee category until they finally bring positionals back.
But RPR needs a harder nerf. It´s braindead to play and has even better utility. It doesn´t deserve to put out more damage than any other melee with a low skill floor and low skill ceiling. The statistics show nothing else than that.

MNK, RPR, NIN, DRG should all be in similar DPS ranges with the only variations being their rDPS due to raid utilities. The only reason SAM should be the top is because they only bring DPS and have no raid utilities. To say a job should have lower DPS because its "easier" to play is absolutely ridiculous and no sane person would quantify class balance with how easy or difficult a class is to play.

Oh and MNK's positionals are not coming back, so give up on that argument.

[Evos]

You are correct in my take on having access to all jobs, but your reasoning is still subjective. Hence, I already know and agree with you. This is why I stated that we can't have it all yet we try.

Also note that I already mentioned if something is "broken" we have to see if the dev(s) intend this or like many say "It's early expansion and the potencies are usually everywhere".

That said, why are we so alarmed and creating post after post if we "know" it is being monitored and will be adjusted accordingly.

The answer, I believe is that "we" hope this is not the dev(s) intention of balance. Lol I find It amusing honestly. But your point is well taken.

[Misutoraru]

MNK, RPR, NIN, DRG should all be in similar DPS ranges with the only variations being their rDPS due to raid utilities. The only reason SAM should be the top is because they only bring DPS and have no raid utilities. To say a job should have lower DPS because its "easier" to play is absolutely ridiculous and no sane person would quantify class balance with how easy or difficult a class is to play.

Oh and MNK's positionals are not coming back, so give up on that argument.

This,
Generally speaking, I can understand range doing a bit less dmg than melee, All in the name of uptime.
On top of that having team buff should do less damage than “selfish” dps. Difficult should never be a parameter, not only it is subjective, lack of proper way to gauge difficulty, also given content are design around every job could clear it, having a job doing more dmg because of “difficulty” is going to lead to exclusion of job. Those job exclusion back in old time FFXIV need not back

[ssunny2008]

This,
Generally speaking, I can understand range doing a bit less dmg than melee, All in the name of uptime.
On top of that having team buff should do less damage than “selfish” dps. Difficult should never be a parameter, not only it is subjective, lack of proper way to gauge difficulty, also given content are design around every job could clear it, having a job doing more dmg because of “difficulty” is going to lead to exclusion of job. Those job exclusion back in old time FFXIV need not back

BLM has been top DPS in Shb, but it was still as unpopular as MNK has been, just because it´s somehow special to play to perform well.

The argument "job-exclusion" lacks hard in this game, the most play whatever they want and the most don´t care about meta-stuff. Obviously the most prefer to stay on simple jobs like RPR, SMN or DNC.
It doesn´t make sense that more difficult jobs shouldn´t have a bit of a comfort-zone. It´s actually an accomodating factor towards casuals / not so good players. Otherwise they would´ve hard times to clear harder content with their favorite class (e.g. SAM).
On the other hand it´s a reward for those who beat the class challenge and that´s important.

(Imo it would go more the way that ppl rely on easy to go classes, if they´ve similar or more damage than mroe difficult ones.)

[Kazimere]

snip

That’s merely your opinion. And no, the only parses that matter are the top parses. Those show the potential of the jobs. Reaper is more forgiving than BLM and Samurai, no doubt, but that doesn’t mean it’s blowing them out of the water. At the top the spread is within the margin of error. Same goes for monk.

Samurai and BLM are the only jobs in the game that have no party utility whatsoever. Think it’s about time they got some, then this whole nonsense of “they should do more because all they have is DPS” nonsense can just stop. Who am I kidding though, people would just argue then that their preferred job should do more because it’s “harder.”

I play all the melee, and I don’t find samurai to be particularly hard to perform with. It being less forgiving for a mistake doesn’t make it harder. It just makes it less forgiving. Reaper has a solid flow, and it’s quite refreshing to be able to not be locked in to a rigid rotation for once.

[Wyakin]

That’s merely your opinion. And no, the only parses that matter are the top parses. Those show the potential of the jobs. Reaper is more forgiving than BLM and Samurai, no doubt, but that doesn’t mean it’s blowing them out of the water. At the top the spread is within the margin of error. Same goes for monk.

Samurai and BLM are the only jobs in the game that have no party utility whatsoever. Think it’s about time they got some, then this whole nonsense of “they should do more because all they have is DPS” nonsense can just stop. Who am I kidding though, people would just argue then that their preferred job should do more because it’s “harder.”

I play all the melee, and I don’t find samurai to be particularly hard to perform with. It being less forgiving for a mistake doesn’t make it harder. It just makes it less forgiving. Reaper has a solid flow, and it’s quite refreshing to be able to not be locked in to a rigid rotation for once.

preach! however I rather doubt anyone will agree with your logic unfortunately mate