*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Veloran]

Perhaps, but humanity now has had the experiences they need to know how to approach suffering. The answer is there.

What experiences? Roughly every 100 years max every individual's memories and experiences are completely reset upon death, at which point they reincarnate into a new, innocent being. And culturally there isn't any "experience" either - As was the sweeping point at the end of 5.0, everything fades with time. Everything that has happened now will be lost to history, forgotten as the mountains tumble to dust and the edifices of this age wear to nothing. Not to mention, how many people fell to despair in moments in Endwalker? Transformed into monstrosities almost instantly by hopelessness? Did they not learn the right lessons?

A truth that might’ve destroyed them. They barely handled the Final Days, if they knew what awaited them at the edge of universe they’d fall divided.

I should think they would take significant comfort in the fact that the Final Days was merely the result of a rogue creation utilizing a powerful energy source rather than being a completely unknowable apocalypse event springing forth from nowhere and nothing. The latter of these circumstances is clearly more difficult to process than the former.

A plan that required thousands of years of research and aether accumulation. And once they get to that other world, then what?

They had thousands of years, given the planet was being protected. And if Venat and her allies were working on it themselves it should have gone quite quickly. As to the second point, ask Venat given she chose to go with that plan even with that question in place.

If they lay out that Zodiark didn’t actively seek temper people but did so just out of virtue of how powerful he was, then that’s that.

That is that, yes. That being bad writing. Hell, it's so vague and contradictory you can hardly even claim that to be the case.

vs a planet wide announcement.

Then don't tell everyone? Or hell, do so. It wasn't a panic that caused the Final Days, it was overwhelming space magic plowing through holes in the atmosphere.

You say all this yet forget that their race was simply not capable of fighting against something like Meteion. Part of the reason for the sundering was to give man the means to fight back.

If only they were capable of creating some sort of beings with the means to fight. Perhaps by thinning the aether of willing individuals somehow. Even just one true hero, who could somehow be split into fourteen copies of themselves. But I guess such a thing was simply beyond their power.

[thegreatonemal]

You are aware that they are not aware of the nature of the thing they would be fighting. They just assumed the star was dying and they weren't too keen on finding out either. They just wanted to run back to their peaceful lives...at the cost of more lives.
@above. You do realize that she Metieon intended to kill every single thing in the universe correct? Sundering man kind was the only way to enabling mankind to fight back. Had Venat just run away she would be in the same situation as anybody else in the universe.

[EaraGrace]

What experiences? Roughly every 100 years max every individual's memories and experiences are completely reset upon death, at which point they reincarnate into a new, innocent being. And culturally there isn't any "experience" either - As was the sweeping point at the end of 5.0, everything fades with time. Everything that has happened now will be lost to history, forgotten as the mountains tumble to dust and the edifices of this age wear to nothing. Not to mention, how many people fell to despair in moments in Endwalker? Transformed into monstrosities almost instantly by hopelessness? Did they not learn the right lessons?

The experiences that are passed on the same way all human knowledge is? And once again, I’m not arguing everything is solved for all time. Just that humanity is now on a path they wouldn’t be if reliant on Zodiark.

I should think they would take significant comfort in the fact that the Final Days was merely the result of a rogue creation utilizing a powerful energy source rather than being a completely unknowable apocalypse event springing forth from nowhere and nothing. The latter of these circumstances is clearly more difficult to process than the former.

And that comfort will quickly be replaced with horror as they realize they are surrounded by a graveyard of civilizations who, despite doing what they thought was best, fell to ruin and despair. And that even if they do survive, ultimately Etheirys and everything on it will still be destined to die.

They had thousands of years, given the planet was being protected. And if Venat and her allies were working on it themselves it should have gone quite quickly. As to the second point, ask Venat given she chose to go with that plan even with that question in place.

Thousands of years maybe. And like I said, they had no interest in remembering the Final Days in any form, but you believe they’d be willing to suffer to achieve that goal?

That is that, yes. That being bad writing. Hell, it's so vague and contradictory you can hardly even claim that to be the case.

Why? It makes sense. Tempering being the natural consequence of creating an incredibly powerful primal doesn’t contradict anything.

Then don't tell everyone? Or hell, do so. It wasn't a panic that caused the Final Days, it was overwhelming space magic plowing through holes in the atmosphere.

Let’s lay this out. You can’t tell everyone, as they’ll panic. You can’t tell the Convocation, as they don’t keep secrets and Hermes reaction may doom the world. So who do you tell? Those you trust and can keep the secret.

[Veloran]

The experiences that are passed on the same way all human knowledge is?

Human knowledge is extremely transitive. Again ShB spelled this out, and the entire game has done nothing to dissuade the notion of people's reliance on gods and messianic figures.

And that comfort will quickly be replaced with horror as they realize they are surrounded by a graveyard of civilizations who, despite doing what they thought was best, fell to ruin and despair. And that even if they do survive, ultimately Etheirys and everything on it will still be destined to die.

The dread of an axe murderer in your kitchen supersedes the dread of existentialism. The Ancients clearly wanted to live.

And like I said, they had no interest in remembering the Final Days in any form, but you believe they’d be willing to suffer to achieve that goal?

These are the people Venat trusted and expected to make the ultimate sacrifice, so yes I would expect them to do so. Midgardsormr did.

It makes sense. Tempering being the natural consequence of creating an incredibly powerful primal doesn’t contradict anything.

It doesn't make sense because Hydaelyn is an incredibly powerful primal and supposedly she did nothing because that was simply not the nature of Ancient primals.

You can’t tell everyone, as they’ll panic.

Who cares if they panic. The Final Days isn't predicated upon their panic.

You can’t tell the Convocation, as they don’t keep secrets and Hermes reaction may doom the world.

There are countless solutions on this front. The first and most obvious - Hermes isn't even necessary because all the information that he brought to the table was already revealed to Venat in Elpis. Another, trick him to get his cooperation. Another, tell the Convocation before Hermes even joined. Way more besides.

A side note, since the Ancients are living lie detectors now, is it any wonder why the Convocation rejected Venat's objections? She was lying to them.

[EaraGrace]

The dread of an axe murderer in your kitchen supersedes the dread of existentialism. The Ancients clearly wanted to live.

They wanted to live under very specific conditions, but when faced with oblivion would they? When they see that every other civilization known eventually died off, and sometimes because they wanted to, would they?

These are the people Venat trusted and expected to make the ultimate sacrifice, so yes I would expect them to do so. Midgardsormr did.

A handful of close confidants is not enough to simultaneously restrain Zodiark, find Meteion, and end the song of oblivion. It took millennia of planning, resources and effort to even just get there.

It doesn't make sense because Hydaelyn is an incredibly powerful primal and supposedly she did nothing because that was simply not the nature of Ancient primals.

Shes no where near as powerful fans Zodiark. It’s stressed multiple times that the power of enervation was what allowed Hydaelyn to succeed. Zodiark was another level of strength, at his height.

Who cares if they panic. The Final Days isn't predicated upon their panic.

It quite literally is though. Panic, despair, hopelessness we’re the emotions that turned people and magicks into blasphemies.

There are countless solutions on this front. The first and most obvious - Hermes isn't even necessary because all the information that he brought to the table was already revealed to Venat in Elpis. Another, trick him to get his cooperation. Another, tell the Convocation before Hermes even joined. Way more besides.

It’s stated multiple times that Hermes is a necessary part of halting the Final Days, not for the things that happened at Elpis, but for his knowledge and expertise. Tricking an incredibly intelligent man with the ability to see if you’re lying seems unwise. And telling before he joins just potentially means the Fonal Days aren’t halted at all.

A side note, since the Ancients are living lie detectors now, is it any wonder why the Convocation rejected Venat's objections? She was lying to them.

They never once accuse her of lying, nor would they if they knew her intent. Was she withholding information, sure. But that’s not lying. Hermes was withholding information on Meteion when he meets with Hythlo and Emet. Did they notice? Nope. Because that’s not a lie.

[Veloran]

They wanted to live under very specific conditions, but when faced with oblivion would they? When they see that every other civilization known eventually died off, and sometimes because they wanted to, would they?

If that was really their choice they deserve the freedom to make that choice. But moreover when faced with that revelation Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, and Venat don't suddenly go mad and decide that life is meaningless, they were surprised but far from shocked into utter despair.

A handful of close confidants is not enough to simultaneously restrain Zodiark, find Meteion, and end the song of oblivion. It took millennia of planning, resources and effort to even just get there.

Maybe you should read back? This part of the conversation was about Venat pulling a Midgardsormr and choosing to leave rather than impose her will on the rest of the Ancients.

Shes no where near as powerful fans Zodiark.

Ah yes, so Zodiark is just arbitrarily at the power threshold needed to give a vague "tug" while Hydaelyn isn't. As I said, this is not very good writing.

It quite literally is though. Panic, despair, hopelessness we’re the emotions that turned people and magicks into blasphemies.

Firstly, the Ancients did not turn into Blasphemes. Secondly no, it wasn't panic that incited the creation of terminus beasts, it was a massive deluge of Dynamis energy from Meteion hijacking their magics. If Meteion's energy wasn't in the process of saturating an area, panic would do nothing - And as we see and are told towards the end of Elpis, Meteion was busy flying off to the edge of the universe to gather power. Venat could have told everyone about the situation immediately after Ktisis, and because Meteion wasn't yet blasting the world everyone could panic and nothing would happen.

And frankly, even the idea they would panic is silly. These are people that formed an orderly queue to sacrifice their own lives on the eve of the world's final doom.

It’s stated multiple times that Hermes is a necessary part of halting the Final Days, not for the things that happened at Elpis, but for his knowledge and expertise.

Again, all the information they needed had already been revealed to Venat. She already knew the aetherial currents would need to be stimulated to shield the planet from Dynamis, if she had gone to the Convocation immediately they could have even done it before 90% of the planet was wiped out. As a reminder Venat literally allowed every other civilization and city other than Amaurot on the planet to be destroyed while the Convocation was racing to figure out what the problem was, when she already knew the problem and what had to be done.

They never once accuse her of lying, nor would they if they knew her intent. Was she withholding information, sure. But that’s not lying.

All anybody would need to do is ask her "why" or ask what she knows and she would be in the middle of a lie. But whereas Meteion was just Hermes' side project that they were hardly interested in, Venat would be trying to convince them why they should allow their friends and families to remain trapped in Zodiark. These are two very different situations.

[EaraGrace]

If that was really their choice they deserve the freedom to make that choice…

On the first point, I actually am very sympathetic to that argument. The second I completely disagree with. Emet fell into a despair that led him to committing horrific acts of evil and then inviting the WoL to kill him. Hythlo was not conscious due to Zodiarks imprisonment and Venat is the one who made the initial judgement that they couldn’t handle it.

Maybe you should read back?.

And my argument is that not only is this a worthless move as unlike Midgard there’s no planet protected from Meteion waiting to be found, the actual resources needed to travel between planets required thousands of years to gather and develop and there’s no reason to believe the group she could gather together could accomplish this.

Ah yes, so Zodiark is just arbitrarily at the power threshold needed to give a vague "tug" while Hydaelyn isn't...

Hydaelyns summoners sacrificed themselves to a man, with Venat at the heart, Zodiarks summoners also included those who would still live, as well as being immensely more powerful, thus does one leave some tempered and the other doesn’t. There’s no bad writing with this despite what you may be believe.

Firstly, the Ancients did not turn into Blasphemes…

And frankly, even the idea they would panic is silly…

My point is that if the Ancients wished to defeat Meteion they would need to face her in her Dynamis filled nest, and they already showed that they were unprepared for the despair they would inevitably face there, while being surrounded by Dynamis. They wouldn’t be able to as they were.

And they immediately went back on that sacrifice by offering innocent life and prayed to a god they created to make the world a “paradise.”

Again, all the information they needed had already been revealed to Venat...

Right, because the magicks we’ve seen in 14 are so easy to cast that they don’t require more than a passing understanding of their effects to mimic. Not to mention everything else potentially left unmentioned that could’ve come up in Zodiarks creation. I mean we didn’t even know about the Aether currents until the Watcher mentioned them.

All anybody would need to do is ask her "why" or ask what she knows and she would be in the middle of a lie...

Either the Ancients are capable of knowing when someone is lying or they’re not. If they are, then she must not of lied. If she did, then we have to take a lot of what we know of the echo and the Ancients and pitch it.

[Absimiliard]

And they immediately went back on that sacrifice by offering innocent life and prayed to a god they created to make the world a “paradise.”

There is zero evidence that the new life created by Zodiark was sapient. This being the case, there is nothing demonstrably wrong with sacrificing it to bring back the many friends and loved ones that gave up their lives to save the world. With the original sacrifices restored and the world healed, why would paradise have been a bad thing? Zodiark was more than powerful enough to forestall the end indefinitely, and the world during that age had more than enough aether to sustain him without any harm being done.

Venat, on the other hand, consigned her own people to what is essentially oblivion because of her own lack of hope. They never had a choice. Their flame was snuffed out needlessly, as it is very likely they would've found a solution to the Meteion problem in time.