Its exactly like every DRK thought.

[Dracosavarian]

Everything I said still applies. PPM is a stupid, misleading metric to use. There is a gap in healing capabilities between the jobs that's for sure, but it's not as wide as PPM would lead you to believe because again, you don't use everything on CD. Unless you think using equilibrium at full HP is a good idea, in which case you shouldn't even take part in this discussion. You also do not use shake it off on cooldown as a personal defensive ability. These stats are near worthless, no ifs ands or buts.
It also fails to take into account how mitigation affects shields, because % mitigation will make shields even stronger whereas it has no effect on cure potencies.

There's legitimate things you could point to as evidence for buffing this job or that, but these stats are not them. Rework living dead, buff oblation or TBN, rework blood weapon, all of these are valid complaints. But "whoah look at how much shield and heal ppm all the other tanks have!" is not valid because that's just not how the game works at all.

It would be like pointing out how high some dps job bursts within the first 10 seconds of an encounter and calling for nerfs just based on those metrics when in actuality it's damage output levels off and is within range of everyone else once you get past those 10 seconds.

Genuinely curious. How would you advise one to go about measuring it then?

[Derio]

Dark Knight's main issue is dungeons?

What?!

Well then, lets check FFLogs for dungeon runs. Oh, yeah, they don't log dungeons because no one cares about dungeons.

Dungeons only purpose is for Tomestones. And they quickly become trivial on any Job in the entire game with raid gear.
You know, the gear that drops from raids.
Oh ...uh ...Raids are like dungeons but instead of 4 players you have 8 players.
Also, Extreme, Savage and Ultimate difficulty raids are the only content that matters what Job you are and how well your Job performs.

This is a very elitist mindset. How do you expect change if the devs focus on casual content experience the most. Casual content includes dungeons.

I dont think we will see any change until people start stating problems with DRK in all content not just extremes, savages and ultimates.

[Hierro]

WAR wins again, baby!

[Atreides]

WAR wins again, baby!

Well WAR were the least favoured raid tanks in ShB (We're living in a world were damage always wins and the damage gap we have right now is nothing to sneeze at).War were always Amazing in dungeons tho and still are.
I don't play DRK but I'm all in favor of giving them means to recover I don't like to see fellow tanks suffer they need changes, they might do fine in raids but running DRK in dungeons at this point is a pain for not only them but the healers too who have a better time with any of the other tanks.

[Xiaoki]

Let's stop pretending that dungeons do not exist.
If your job does terrible in a dungeon, it is not fun. For you or anyone else in the dungeon with you.
"Yes but what matters is savage and ultimates" hell no. Not everyone bothers with that.
Dungeon is the vast majority of the game's content mind you, so yes a job should at least be fun to play and effective there before considering how effective they are in high difficulty content.

Dungeons do exist, they just don't matter.

They don't matter because you can easily out-gear them. If you're at the max gear sync and still having problems then that is on the player, not the Job and you're only blaming the Job because you are bad.

The only reason dungeons are the majority of the content is because people run them for Tomestones. That's it, that's the only reason.

Also, if you did bother with the actually difficult content then you would know that things that matter in dungeons don't matter nearly as much in raids.

Like tank self-sustain.

Tank self healing isn't that important in raids because you either take a big tank buster and healers bomb you with heals and the self healing you just did is over-healing and useless (congrats) or you take a raid-wide AoE that does like 10% damage to you but 60 to 70% damage to healers.

In Savage raids most of my TBNs would go to the healers because I didn't need it.

[Kalaam]

Good, you are a god at the game, we get it.
Stop making everything about savage content. You know people can also, get this, not be interresting in doing high difficulty stuff ?
So it's fine that DRK is a slog in dungeons during levelling, 'cause once you have done them enough to get the high end gear that comes 2 months later you'll do enough damage to be actually good ?
That's your justification ? Why is it only DRK struggling then ?

[Oextra]

I'm not suggesting kill it's identity.

I understand Warrior having more heal sustain than others, but when it's getting pushed to double the amount vs PLD/GNB, and 4x the amount vs DRK, it's climbing up to a point, Warrior is becoming the immortal tank further expansions. Warrior has the shortest Invuln cooldown with absolutely no draw backs, DRK has a 5 Min Living Dead that needs rework on it's debuff, GNB Bolide 6 Mins forcing to 1HP, PLD HG being a very long cooldown 7 mins no damage, all three of these have drawbacks.

It's interesting how you're comparing the healing to the other tanks as if that's all there is to it. PLD doesn't need to heal as much due to having much more mitigation, with "half" the healing it survives just as long. GNB has more mitigation, does more damage, and the combo heal is on 2 vs 3. DRK simply needs a buff in this department, so comparison here is futile unless you're advocating for DRK buffs.

Also Holmgang does have a minor draw back. You still receive damage. Both GNB and PLD literally make you invulnerable. The only one that's trash is DRK, so once again comparison here is futile unless advocating for a DRK buff. The other three are more balanced.

Now when you have the tank that literally fights without needing healing assistance for a long while, self power healing that can be popped wherever it's needing it, no invuln drawback, great burst, you'll have to submit this job has been obtaining more power heals every xpac and without putting limits on it, it's going to run into a big problem with comps setups meaning no healer, or 1 Healer only required for example. In the future this job needs drawbacks as every other tank does, except DRK being in a bad spot at the moment in some places.

As I stated above, PLD can survive just as long without a healer, the invuln does have a draw back, and all tanks except for maybe PLD have great bursts (which will definitely change). If teams were to run 1 healer and 1 tank, it wouldn't be exclusive to WAR. It would more than likely come down to GNB or WAR only because PLD does the least damage by a good amount, and DRK simply can't survive on its own. As soon as PLD gets a potency buff, all but DRK could fulfill this roll. So that whole scenario is moot. Especially since most top teams are actually running DRK and GNB over WAR and PLD for raids and extremes. Which shows just how little survivability really matters in end game content.

Lastly WAR does have draw backs. Stop acting like it's top tier. It simply has the best healing and shielding, while being the easiest to play. That's it. It has the least mitigation, and does the third most damage.

[DarkDredgen]

Dungeons do exist, they just don't matter.

They don't matter because you can easily out-gear them. If you're at the max gear sync and still having problems then that is on the player, not the Job and you're only blaming the Job because you are bad.

The only reason dungeons are the majority of the content is because people run them for Tomestones. That's it, that's the only reason.

Also, if you did bother with the actually difficult content then you would know that things that matter in dungeons don't matter nearly as much in raids.

Like tank self-sustain.

Tank self healing isn't that important in raids because you either take a big tank buster and healers bomb you with heals and the self healing you just did is over-healing and useless (congrats) or you take a raid-wide AoE that does like 10% damage to you but 60 to 70% damage to healers.

In Savage raids most of my TBNs would go to the healers because I didn't need it.

Most the dungeons are tied to the main story, which we all play repeatedly, whether you like it or not.

And, only a small portion of this games player base actually touches end game content too.

Makes no sense to tailor the game to the small minority at the expense of the majority, balance has to be found.

I'm not sure which dungeon broke your heart my friend, but they are and always will be a vitally important aspect to the game and every job should feel/perform well within them really.

[Oextra]

Players tend to be quite greedy when it comes to identities. It's never just about focusing in on one thing, they want all the good things. One of the things that I'm enjoying about melee dps at the moment is that the jobs feel much more varied. You can only really have that if you respect job boundaries and give them all an opportunity to have an identity. WAR is spread so widely across so many areas that it stifles game design. I don't think you could come up with a fifth tank at this point.

I'm curious in what you mean by spread so widely? It literally only does 1 thing better than other tanks. Self heal. The only other thing that it has that the other tanks don't is guaranteed direct hit crits. Even so, it's in third place damage wise. Lastly it's the simplest tank (arguably class) to play. All of this pretty much makes it impossible for it to be "spread widely".

[Dracosavarian]

Dungeons do exist, they just don't matter.

They don't matter because you can easily out-gear them. If you're at the max gear sync and still having problems then that is on the player, not the Job and you're only blaming the Job because you are bad.

The only reason dungeons are the majority of the content is because people run them for Tomestones. That's it, that's the only reason.

Also, if you did bother with the actually difficult content then you would know that things that matter in dungeons don't matter nearly as much in raids.

Like tank self-sustain.

Tank self healing isn't that important in raids because you either take a big tank buster and healers bomb you with heals and the self healing you just did is over-healing and useless (congrats) or you take a raid-wide AoE that does like 10% damage to you but 60 to 70% damage to healers.

In Savage raids most of my TBNs would go to the healers because I didn't need it.

I would make the counter argument, that the vast majority of this games community, does not wish to see FFXIV turn into World of Warcraft.