So you're telling me..

[Visanis]

So you want to nerf arcane circle? The raid buff which is the least effective raid buff? A 3%, 2 minute buff which yields less raid dps than chain, litany, trick, battle voice, brotherhood? All because in your opinion reaper is too powerful. Now, the only reason people like scuoll are calling for this nerf is because their job isn’t too dps. Well.. someone has to be. It’s nice for it to not be samurai or black mage

It's not their opinion when it's factually correct that RPR is overtuned based on its raid utility and dps compared to classes with similar amounts of utility or without any at all.

However, it is YOUR opinion when you say people want RPR nerfed because the class they're playing isn't dealing as much damage or that it's nice that it isn't SAM or BLM who are at the top. You know, the ones that should be there based on the design philosophy of this games balance.

Pretty sure you wouldn't be as zealous in defending RPR if it was something like DNC being at the very top. (Or if you weren't on the RPR fanboy train)

[Kolsykol]

I don't want to be dealing as much damage as Reaper on BLM, I want to deal more damage because I have no raid utility and because it's more difficult to play and less forgiving.
If I have to put a billion times more effort into it than when I am playing Reaper then yeah I want that to matter.

The cool thing about BLM too is that there is a more significant difference between a good BLM player, an okay one and a bad one.
BLM scaling really well with player skill has always been a great thing imo.
But that scaling also needs to be rewarding.

[ZiraZ]

So you want to nerf arcane circle? The raid buff which is the least effective raid buff? A 3%, 2 minute buff which yields less raid dps than chain, litany, trick, battle voice, brotherhood? All because in your opinion reaper is too powerful. Now, the only reason people like scuoll are calling for this nerf is because their job isn’t too dps. Well.. someone has to be. It’s nice for it to not be samurai or black mage

CREST, crest is broken, and its not opinions, people have posted evidence of how broken it is, if you choose to dismiss the evidence then there is nothing to discuss.
Circle is fine on it's own if the personal reaper dps gets nerfed, but having the personal dps of a SAM or BLM AND also having circle is not fine, same goes for monk and brotherhood, if their nDPS gets nerfed then circle and brotherhood are fine.

[Scuoll]

So you want to nerf arcane circle? The raid buff which is the least effective raid buff? A 3%, 2 minute buff which yields less raid dps than chain, litany, trick, battle voice, brotherhood? All because in your opinion reaper is too powerful. Now, the only reason people like scuoll are calling for this nerf is because their job isn’t too dps. Well.. someone has to be. It’s nice for it to not be samurai or black mage

Man i stopped reading for a couple days but as i said as an earlier post, can you just stick to the argument instead of going for made up ad hominems about me? It sounds to me like you know that defending the points is useless and you have to resort to making stuff up about me because it looks better than saying "no guys its fine reaper has 1k hps in logs but it also should be top dps and really easy to play ". You also keep misrepresenting the power of arcane circle: it is technically less effective than litany, on average , by a whopping 20 to 30 dps out of 6-7 THOUSAND, its a raid buff on par with the others, while their personal dps is way way higher.

Also doubt that you will care, but i already got reaper to 90 and plan to play it pretty consistently, maybe not main it, but i like it, its pretty fun and flashy, and that is also why i can say that it can keep the same playstyle and do the same things just without being top dps effortlessly.

Its completely useless to discuss like this, i am not out here saying you just dont want reaper nerfed because you selfishly want your class to be best at everything, my argument, which you refused to adress several times already during these posts is quite simple, i'll say it one more time : reaper currently excels at both damage and utility,their utility being way better than the other melees, which sometimes have none, while being easier to use which in turn leads to players having an easier time performing on it.

Now since there are multiple melee jobs, is it good balancing if one is the best at everything? Should there not be, at least sometimes, an advantage to bringing other jobs?

Please argue about this, although for all i know your next post is calling me a filthy non raiding "some other job" main which wants to top dps for self fulfillment or something. The other argument outside of personal attacks you have made has been "i like not seeing samurai or black mage on top", which isnt even relevant to this discussion.

[Misutoraru]

I don't want to be dealing as much damage as Reaper on BLM, I want to deal more damage because I have no raid utility and because it's more difficult to play and less forgiving.
If I have to put a billion times more effort into it than when I am playing Reaper then yeah I want that to matter.

The cool thing about BLM too is that there is a more significant difference between a good BLM player, an okay one and a bad one.
BLM scaling really well with player skill has always been a great thing imo.
But that scaling also needs to be rewarding.

BLM should be highest in DPS with SAM simply due to lack of any raidwide utility
But complexity or difficulty should never be in the formula of balancing. Balancing should be around the perfect or at least near perfect execution of each job.

[Kolsykol]

BLM should be highest in DPS with SAM simply due to lack of any raidwide utility
But complexity or difficulty should never be in the formula of balancing. Balancing should be around the perfect or at least near perfect execution of each job.

I think it should have some bearing, I am not saying it should be huge but I think that if a Job is significantly easier to play optimally than others then it should be in the equation.

[ssunny2008]

BLM should be highest in DPS with SAM simply due to lack of any raidwide utility
But complexity or difficulty should never be in the formula of balancing. Balancing should be around the perfect or at least near perfect execution of each job.

Yes and no.

You´ve to keep compelxity and / or difficulty in mind when it comes to balancing. Imagine there is a class with just 1 button spam doing the same damage as a class with 20 buttons. It´s impossible to missplay on the 1st, while the 2nd is able to fck up everything. On top you´ve content which puts different pressure on different classes.

- Melee´s should always have the highest average DPS, just because they have to keep uptime and have the most trouble playing about certain mechanics. You rely on tank-positioning too.
- BLM should´ve pretty even damage to melees, because you´re static. You´ve to know the fight, etc... but you still have a range-advantage, which doesn´t justify being better than melees.
- MNK / RPR should be at the bottom of all melees now. Both are easy to play.
- RDM should stay on MNK / RPR level, it´s not harder to play, has a range advantage and great utility.
- SMN and all RDPS classes have a lot of freedom. They can do whatever they want at each mechanic and they´re easy to play. There is no reason, why they should be top DPS, even if you´ve executed your job perfectly.

Yes, balance should be around 80% or even 90% plus players. But it shouldn´t be about "perfect parse-raiders". We´ve an average playerbase and the skill-level in FF14 isn´t that high. You´ve to keep in mind that ppl do mistakes, especially on melee-classes or even BLM. Such mistakes aren´t a real or atleast a rare thing on easier classes. It´s not only a matter of "job-execution", it´s about the easier execution of everything in any encounter.

Don´t get me wrong, i´m not talking about a 20% gap or something. Something like the following in kind of the average DPS (buffs already taken into account) would be fine i guess:

- 8k SAM , NIN, DRG, BLM
- 7,8k MNK, RPR, RDM
- 7,5k SMN, BRD, MCH, DNC

EDIT: Later with max scaling maybe like 16k / 15,6k / 15,1k , but not 4k gaps as we´ve seen them in Shb.

This is not a huge thing and gives some space in kind of DPS on classes, which have way more chances to missplay or need to play around the downtime. Some range or "easy to execute" tax needs to be paid.

[Shuuli]

Yes and no.

You´ve to keep compelxity and / or difficulty in mind when it comes to balancing. Imagine there is a class with just 1 button spam doing the same damage as a class with 20 buttons. It´s impossible to missplay on the 1st, while the 2nd is able to fck up everything. On top you´ve content which puts different pressure on different classes.

- Melee´s should always have the highest average DPS, just because they have to keep uptime and have the most trouble playing about certain mechanics. You rely on tank-positioning too.
- BLM should´ve pretty even damage to melees, because you´re static. You´ve to know the fight, etc... but you still have a range-advantage, which doesn´t justify being better than melees.
- MNK / RPR should be at the bottom of all melees now. Both are easy to play.
- RDM should stay on MNK / RPR level, it´s not harder to play, has a range advantage and great utility.
- SMN and all RDPS classes have a lot of freedom. They can do whatever they want at each mechanic and they´re easy to play. There is no reason, why they should be top DPS, even if you´ve executed your job perfectly.

Yes, balance should be around 80% or even 90% plus players. But it shouldn´t be about "perfect parse-raiders". We´ve an average playerbase and the skill-level in FF14 isn´t that high. You´ve to keep in mind that ppl do mistakes, especially on melee-classes or even BLM. Such mistakes aren´t a real or atleast a rare thing on easier classes. It´s not only a matter of "job-execution", it´s about the easier execution of everything in any encounter.

Don´t get me wrong, i´m not talking about a 20% gap or something. Something like the following in kind of the average DPS (buffs already taken into account) would be fine i guess:

- 8k SAM , NIN, DRG, BLM
- 7,8k MNK, RPR, RDM
- 7,5k SMN, BRD, MCH, DNC

EDIT: Later with max scaling maybe like 16k / 15,6k / 15,1k , but not 4k gaps as we´ve seen them in Shb.

This is not a huge thing and gives some space in kind of DPS on classes, which have way more chances to missplay or need to play around the downtime. Some range or "easy to execute" tax needs to be paid.

Based on this Reaper should be dealing just a slight higher dmg than SMN in my opinion based on its "difficulty to play" and its "added attributes to the team with its mobility".

[Kolsykol]

Based on this Reaper should be dealing just a slight higher dmg than SMN in my opinion based on its "difficulty to play" and its "added attributes to the team with its mobility".

SMN vs RDM is a bit interesting because while yes SMN is perhaps way too easy to play.
Their utility is also not as strong as RDM, even ressing RDM blows SMN out of the water a SMN ressing now is even more of a hurt to their dps.

Imo I think SMN and RDM should basically be the same even tho SMN is easier to play, but I think that the utility of RDM evens it out a bit.

[Ransu]

I get people don't like seeing their new favorite classes get nerfed, but reaper is 100% broken lol. To say otherwise is just being delusional.