Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[KizuyaKatogami]

Then why are you arguing the exact opposite of the game message then? The message is pretty bleak: perfection is a dead-end, there is no enlightenment and salvation is a lie. Life is a constant struggle and suffering but find the will to live through it anyway.

Do I believe it as a person? No. Do I believe it in the game? Yes. That's why within the story context, the Ancient culture is portrait-ed (to the players) as one being on the "wrong path", and thus must be corrected before meeting its ultimate demise. That's why Venat tried to convince them to accept suffering, and when they rejected it, she took away their wing to paradise and force them to walk because within the in game logic, such paradise eventually gonna end up like Ra'Ha.

That's the story logic, irregardless of what our real life logic dictate.






Uh ... no. The cycle of rebirth is an in game concept, so why would that breaking the 4th wall. Again, I noticed you guy never address the conflict I had brought up in the MSQ, Venat was clearly uncomfortable when other pressed her to end her life. Herme was apparel at the callousness of his fellow ancients. I don't need to break any 4th wall.

Venat didn’t try to convince them to do anything. They knew suffering even before the final days. Pandaemonium shows this. I don’t know how many times i need to repay myself. They acknowledged imperfections. They acknowledged suffering was a thing. It’s why the entire message rings hollow when it comes to the ancients because they lived through these things numerous times. They did what they did for the safety of the star not specifically for perfection or to be perfect, but even so we’ve seen with the dragons that even being a nigh-on perfect society who didn’t do anything wrong was still doomed because of the omicrons. Hermes is a very special case as he’s literally the only one who felt this way, and it’s specifically for plot convenience. They wrote it to where one ancient just wasn’t wrong in the head and that’s where all the problems stemmed from. It’s pretty weak writing but whatever, that isn’t the point. The point is an entire race of people isn’t responsible for what 1 or 2 people do. At the end of the day, Venat was in the wrong. They themselves say this in the game. She was a monster, she was wrong, she slaughtered her own people because someone she knew for a couple hours “showed promise.” End of the story.

[Raven2014]

Venat didn’t try to convince them to do anything.

I think someone had asked this ealier but I gotta ask this again ... did you actually watch the post Elpis cutsceen? @_@

Since you like screenshot, I went and got some for you just in case.

https://imgur.com/a/Zga9QFB

Between this and your earlier take on Estinien, I start to think you just ignore/delete any part of the story that do not conform to your view.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think someone had asked this ealier but I gotta ask this again ... did you actually watch the post Elpis cutsceen? @_@

Since you like screenshot, I went and got some for you just in case.

https://imgur.com/a/Zga9QFB

Between this and your earlier take on Estinien, I start to think you just ignore/delete any part of the story that do not conform to your view.

My earlier take on Estinien was correct as was my Ironworks one which was what you ignore. My point on that was she hadn’t tried to convince them or tell them anything prior to the actual final days occurring, she kept it all a secret. I’ve given proof again, on how they knew what suffering was before the final days, and that they knew there were imperfections. Given that there’s numerous examples of that i’m disinclined to believe a one off line from an understandably frightened ancient is able to be taken as 100% clarity. Unless it’s just inconsistencies in which then we are further proving the point of the writing being hilariously bad this expansion. But i’ve given you countless examples now that completely refute your absurd claims and you still continue to try and preach about things that have countless evidence against. Face it, she herself says she’s wrong. She’s wrong. The writing does a very bad job of portraying her as such later on however and is just another example of the writing this expansion being rushed. I’m not sure what left there is to argue at this point?

[Raven2014]

. Face it, she herself says she’s wrong. She’s wrong.

Prove it? Where exactly does Venat accept she is wrong? She said she accept the responsibility of causing all the suffering that she had caused, but she never said she was wrong. Again, like usual you're warping what is said to fit your own pov. Venat does not seek to be extorted of the suffer she caused, but neither she would have done anything differently because did not believe she was wrong. And the story "vindicated" her at the end by a certain character.

If the whole sundering business could be viewed as a civil war between 2 faction, then Emetch-Setch is the status quo faction and Venat is the one leading for change. In the end, after regain his full memory and free of Zodiak influence, he said this, moar screenshot for oyu!

https://imgur.com/a/EMo3Gol

The 2 dialogues pretty much encapsulate the whole argument. If there is anyone who can hold grievance against Venat, that would be Emet-Selch and he rightfully still does at the end. After all it's hard to forgive Venat for all the crap he had to went through because of her. But at the same time, he admits that his method (maintain the status quo) would not have taken mankind to the new height. Venat's vindication was given by the only character in the game that could have given it.

I think some people are just obsessed with putting a specific label on things. Who's right, who's wrong, who's the heroes, who's the ultimate villain while the story basically is doing it hardest to have none of that. Hell, despite being the death bringer of countless stars, not even the end singer is portrayed as the big bad villain.

Btw, this is not exactly the first time it pulls something like this. Remember Ilberd and the start of liberation of Ala Miho? It's almost an identical theme.

[Lauront]

The issue with the ancients was not that they saw life/death as beautiful, it was that they were so used to being able to name a time and place for death that they had no idea how to deal with anything less than perfect and would rather frantically slap the undo button than try to figure things out. This new, largescale death was scary because it offered no catharsis, it offered no chance to say goodbye, it offered no option to keep living if you felt you still had more to give. Thats why the ghosts on the moon act the way they do. Thats why the folks lining up for the sacrifice wanted to go back to how things were. They couldn't deal with sudden change. They didn't know how to handle a curveball thrown at them because they'd never seen one before.

Probably why the Convocation put serious thought into the notion of another raft of sacrifices to release them - from an ancient's POV, the situation they were left in divorced them from their connection to the planet. IMO it's less about them not knowing how to handle curveballs and more that this one was totally inexplicable to them (and apparently the way Meteion works was elusive enough to pass by virtually every star she pushed to the brink), hijacked one of their primary tools (creation magicks) and in the process, devoured the star from inside out, so that by that point, their own lives were the only fuel remaining available to halt it. That had the unfortunate cost that the souls inside Zodiark would be trapped in him until they could find a way to release them without sapping his own strength in the process, because he was still needed.

Are you "creepy AF" or lacking empathy for consuming factory-farmed animal meat? That causes way more suffering and fear than reversing a few magic test creatures. Would you be upset if someone let an incoming meter wipe us out due to our animal farming?

That's essentially what you're advocating for.

Precisely. To take it a step further, we as a species (as do the sundered) also shape the development of plant and animal species for our own benefit, and also aspire towards devising artificially intelligent beings (AIs). We're not at the point where we'd consider personhood a relevant factor for the latter (and I suspect it is going to be very murky if we ever do), but certain people definitely do believe we're immoral for it in the former case, and some would advocate for what you mention... I see Hermes's mindset as no different to that. He is wed to the notion of living for its own sake, even where that becomes something inimical to the star's broader well being. That is on top of him unleashing a poorly thought out creation to do some very sensitive work while being very secretive about it.

It seemed like they were laying the foundation for a different story in ShB, one which they decided to abandon and go with new construction in EW. Maybe in part because Yoshi-P decided to move the conclusion from 7.0 to 6.0.

My issues with the narrative surrounding Hydaelyn in EW are two-fold:

1) Even if Venat acknowledges what she did, the game doesn't treat her as a monster. The player is not given any dialog choices towards her that are negative, the NPCs justify her actions, and the cutscenes are emotional in a positive way. Where is this 'condemnation' she's supposed to be experiencing? The sundering wiped everyone's memories, so aside from the unsundered there wasn't anyone who knew or cared about what she did and even Emet forgives her in his own way. There is no one who hates her and by the end of it none who considers her choices to even be questionable.

2) The writing to achieve the closed time loop came across as horribly contrived. I know we're supposed to critique the story and not the writing, but in this case it's difficult because it was so blatantly obvious that the goal was to have everything come 'full circle' to the extent of having a literal mind wiping plot device. Going back to #1, this is particularly problematic if you didn't approve of what Venat did. The game still strong arms you into this 12k year BFF relationship with her by the end, as if you've always been in this together, like it's something beautiful rather than repulsive.

I also think they've written themselves into an awkward position with Azem. Not only do we know from ShB that Azem had ghosted Venat, but of the two Azems we know of, the WoL and Ardbert, both have gone above and beyond to save their friends and their world. It's completely unbelievable that Azem would have supported what Venat did, which makes the writing of the WoL's relationship with her in EW incredibly problematic.

I was irritated by the lack of any available options to shrug her off. As for the Scions, the closest we get is Y'shtola stating that even if her actions were neither kind nor just, it'd fall upon them (as the beneficiaries of them, I guess) to imbue them with some meaning.

To me, Hades's concession to her at the end ultimately amounts to nothing. Absent being able to see how his people would've fared given the available knowledge, it is little more than conjecture on his part. Therefore, I place little weight on it. But it nonetheless amounts to a form of reconciliation between Hades and her, which I think is what mattered more to them than who was right or wrong.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

The problem here is when they deliberately say yes she’s wrong, what she did wasn’t good, she herself says she’s a monster for doing it, yet the story itself still paints her as benevolent. Where is all of this deep dialogue and cutscenes for Elidibus or Zodiark? Considering they’re the ones who essentially prevented Meteion from ending the world for this long where is their credit? If anyone can hold grievance against Venat i would argue it’s the lives of all the ancients whom she tore apart. I’m not warping it, she herself says she’s a monster lol. Idk how much more you can be oblivious. Do you honestly think she was right to lie and cause as much suffering as she did when she easily could’ve made a difference then and there? If so then there’s no more reason to discuss, people will remain being ignorant to the facts even after being presented with facts. Just because the story “vindicated” her doesn’t make her any less of a monster lol. Again, there’s a very clear and obvious bias going on. That’s what this whole argument is about, how backwards the writing is that Venat herself says she’s a monster, all of her actions paint her as such, yet the game still continues to paint her as this benevolent goddess and Zodiark and Elidibus arent mentioned anywhere after the fact.It’s another case of well it’s okay for the protagonists to do this, but if the antagonists do it it’s wrong. And this game is riddled with things like this, the key point being Ironworks. It’s just shoddy and rushed writing in the end. A real shame because people have waited years for the end of this story and it’s clear the writers just didn’t care.

[Rokke]

Probably why the Convocation put serious thought into the notion of another raft of sacrifices to release them - from an ancient's POV, the situation they were left in divorced them from their connection to the planet. IMO it's less about them not knowing how to handle curveballs and more that this one was totally inexplicable to them (and apparently the way Meteion works was elusive enough to pass by virtually every star she pushed to the brink), hijacked one of their primary tools (creation magicks) and in the process, devoured the star from inside out, so that by that point, their own lives were the only fuel remaining available to halt it. That had the unfortunate cost that the souls inside Zodiark would be trapped in him until they could find a way to release them without sapping his own strength in the process, because he was still needed.

What I mean by unable to adapt was that after Zodiark was summoned and the 2nd sacrifice happened there was a brief moment of peace. Theoretically that was the tipping point more so than his creation (theoretically because tempering inherently threw a wrench in that, the convocation were sol from the moment they "saved" the day). In that interlude the survivors debated what to do next. The convocation was going to push for sacrifice #3...and thats where everything went to hell. Had everyone been able to accept what was lost and made due with who they had left they wouldn't have needed to have been sundered. It would have been painful to accept permanent loss of those who gave the ultimate sacrifice (rip Hyth ;-;7) but it could have stopped there. Theoretically. Poor Elidibus drew the shortest stick in the planet's history :c

Elpis' ending cutscene and Ultima Thule are ultimately about people who locked their legs instead of adapting. The story is a little clumsy in the message because the writers inexplicably really wanted a self fulfilling prophesy/bootstrap paradox, but I'm pretty sure its trying to tell you that even when you're hurt, scared, sad, etc, you need to put one foot in front of the other and keep moving forward.

[Ranhansha]

Did you not see the screenshots i posted? How was their empathy lacking. They literally cherished the life of even soulless creations. Not sure where you get that they only care about their race when they literally sacrificed people to bring back some of the dead creatures and people that were originally dead.

No, I didn't. Did you play the game? They literally told you what I said through Hermes. They didn't give a damn about the lives that didn't stick to their standards and that's what make Hermes break. That's why he goes to such lengths to try to save their lives, that's why you have Emet teach the Sanuwa how to fly.

Are you "creepy AF" or lacking empathy for consuming factory-farmed animal meat? That causes way more suffering and fear than reversing a few magic test creatures. Would you be upset if someone let an incoming meter wipe us out due to our animal farming?

That's essentially what you're advocating for.

Yeah? I'm certainly lacking more empathy than other people. That doesn't mean I would take a life as if it were nothing or a joyous thing. At least we kill them to get something in return and not because we have a God complex. Anyways, the comparison makes no sense because they were supposed to be a thousand times better than "us" imperfect beings. They were on a whole different level. And in spite of that, we have proved to be a lot more empathetic than them, especially when things go south and that can be seen in the same EW MSQ and when we do the role quests, when we try to save all kinds of people irregardless of their situation.

And no, I'm not advocating for anything, I'm just saying they weren't perfect and I don't understand why everyone thinks a society of psychopaths with a God complex was perfect. You are essentially advocating for racism and classism.

[FrogDog]

This was the plot of Endwalker in a nutshell

[Floortank]

We know that Fandaniel's got the Final Days started back on the planet, but aside from that we know absolutely nothing about what's going on. The entire game has changed; right up until then, our enemies were the Telophoroi, Fandaniel, Zodiark, and Zenos. The Telophoroi are no more, Fandaniel and Zodiark are dead, and Zenos has decided to just go away a while. Now we're facing a new threat, one we know little about. The only thing about the Final Days we know is that creation magics went wild and killed everyone. But those magics don't exist anymore, so the nature of the threat is unknown. Also the cause, and potential fixes, are unknown as well. We also know it hasn't happened yet, though it'll happen soon.

But that emissary of Hydaelyn we meet on the moon has some clues, and we learn it almost right away after Zodiark. Then, we're sent to talk to more of Hydaelyn's stewards, who we are told are created just in case the Final Days starts again as a contingency. Going to have a chat with the Loporrits is by FAR the smartest thing we can do, because we have no idea what we're up against. The ancient hand-crafted creations of god, who were made *for this exact scenario*, might be a worthwhile people to talk to since all of the other immediate threats have passed.

I honestly don't get how people missed the point of the bunnies. Heck, the problems at Radz-at-Han don't even start until a while after we return from the moon -- what, were we supposed to just go back to the planet and twiddle our thumbs until the apocalypse hits? Or do what we've always done, seek out answers and gather allies?

You can understand the point of the bunnies and still find them a completely pointless time waster.

I was asking "what caused the Final Days" back in the Amaurot dungeon two years ago.

That was the only question anyone needed to ask for like the first 25 hours of the Endwalker MSQ, and they didn't ask it.

It's dumb that the story only really begins when someone asks that question. We go to Elpis the moment it becomes necessary to find out what happened.

The story should have begun at Elpis because that's where the story actually has any purpose. If you cut everything before that you still same story result.