Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[SamsaraTrickstar]

How so? That was already in motion? And why are the Ancients all of a sudden this hyper perfect society? They are creepy af. Hermes' story is exactly about that. Their empathy is lacking and they only care about their race and their purpose.
But I guess people who wanted Venat to be evil before EW and did't get that will just try to find a different means to justify it. Arguably, you could find it since Elpis doesn't make sense at all. Venat, a former and respected member of the Convocation in a society where dialogue was highly respected and fostered knows everything about the Apocalypse that is going to destroy the whole world and she does nothing. It's not that she's evil, it's absurd writing. She became dumb all of a sudden.

That's the problem.uts not clear at all. As I get it we can't effect the past and this past is not the we are from. It's like in DBZ when trunks can't change his time line but can save the past by creating a different one. But if we was not in the past will any of this take place the same way? That why time travel is bad in 99.9% of times.

[Raven2014]

The “normal” society is the ancient society in this game.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Yes, it is because the Ancient society has that kind of normal that it is the problem ... that's kinda the point of the story. Murdering each others is also normal in the Sith society as well ... doesn't make it right does it? The story was presenting to "us" - the player, how that kind of "normal" is a potential path to ruin. The ancient society is definitely portraitred as an almost flawless paradise, but with a fatal flaw. That's the whole premise of the Elpis arc.

he was fine and happy slaughtering those dragons and felt 0 remorse

Now you're pushing thing into head-cannon territory. He definitely feel remorse, his whole story since post since post 3.0 has been a journey to redemtion. Half of his dialogue in 6.0 is him trying to reconcile man and dragon. Estinien the Azure Dragoon and Estinien the Scion are 2 persons. You're literally denying his existence ever since the conclusion of the 3.0 story. Also, in 3.0 Estinien wasn't a scion, so even your insistent about the point I made is off the mark.

n regards to your later Venat point of them having a future plan for her i doubt it. The Endwalker story is over. They stated the Endwalker story would be over and 6.1+ will be a completely new story

Granted this part is just my conjecture. But I feel they're dropping too many hint for it to be nothing. Plus it's not like it will contradict whatever they said before. It's said 6.0 is the end of "Zodiak/Hydaelin" arc, as long as those 2 entities remain dead and buried it is fine. We know the current Azem did find a solution without involving them (but couldn't enact it in time), they make it Azem/Venat has a mentor/student relationship, the short story also said Elidibus is a big fan of the current Azem, someone he took inspiration from.

Could all of these connection amount to nothing? They could be, but I doubt.

[Syrri]

Personally, my headcanon retcon is that Venat was mind-wiped, because anything else makes her the worst monster in the series.

Were you not paying attention to the whole post Elpis cutscene? Venat admits she is a monster and nothing she did was just or righteous, it was necessary for Man to move forward and overcome despair. She doesn't consider herself a hero or good, she did what she thought was necessary and accepts the condemnation for it, one reason she didn't show her primal form was so she wouldn't be the embodiment of hydaelyn but that the crystal itself would.

Emet even comments on this after he's "revived" saying that Venat brought Man further then they could have; he says this after coming back from spending the past what 20k years living through the sundering and then regaining his memories from Elpis.

[Yencat]

And why are the Ancients all of a sudden this hyper perfect society? They are creepy af. Hermes' story is exactly about that. Their empathy is lacking and they only care about their race and their purpose.

We'll have to see how it plays out when the raid series is over, but so far the whole concept of Pandaemonium also makes me wonder if it wasn't a matter of time before they wrecked themselves. Did no one think this was a bad idea? A prison full of extremely dangerous creatures they themselves created seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Ties back (or forward, I guess?) nicely to Allag and their rather extreme experiments I suppose, but it does kind of feel like maybe they were already flying a bit too close to the sun.

[Dark_Lord_Kuro]

Well they did say the first final days happend gradually starting in area where the celestial current were the weakest, and what did we get? A gradual start of the new final days

[KizuyaKatogami]

How so? That was already in motion? And why are the Ancients all of a sudden this hyper perfect society? They are creepy af. Hermes' story is exactly about that. Their empathy is lacking and they only care about their race and their purpose.
But I guess people who wanted Venat to be evil before EW and did't get that will just try to find a different means to justify it. Arguably, you could find it since Elpis doesn't make sense at all. Venat, a former and respected member of the Convocation in a society where dialogue was highly respected and fostered knows everything about the Apocalypse that is going to destroy the whole world and she does nothing. It's not that she's evil, it's absurd writing. She became dumb all of a sudden.

Did you not see the screenshots i posted? How was their empathy lacking. They literally cherished the life of even soulless creations. Not sure where you get that they only care about their race when they literally sacrificed people to bring back some of the dead creatures and people that were originally dead.

[Raven2014]

Did you not see the screenshots i posted? How was their empathy lacking. They literally cherished the life of even soulless creations. Not sure where you get that they only care about their race when they literally sacrificed people to bring back some of the dead creatures and people that were originally dead.

And I'm pretty sure I already pointed out your screenshot showed nothing more they're dressing wrongful act with pretty words, and you're ignoring it.

Like said, there is a researcher during the MSQ who clearly adore and respect Venat a lot, and because of that he literally said he can not wait for the day she kill herself because it will be beautiful. That's a mess up thing to say, calling it beautiful doesn't make it so, and because such perception is the norm in Ancient society that's why it is a problem.

[Rulakir]

It seemed like they were laying the foundation for a different story in ShB, one which they decided to abandon and go with new construction in EW. Maybe in part because Yoshi-P decided to move the conclusion from 7.0 to 6.0.

My issues with the narrative surrounding Hydaelyn in EW are two-fold:

1) Even if Venat acknowledges what she did, the game doesn't treat her as a monster. The player is not given any dialog choices towards her that are negative, the NPCs justify her actions, and the cutscenes are emotional in a positive way. Where is this 'condemnation' she's supposed to be experiencing? The sundering wiped everyone's memories, so aside from the unsundered there wasn't anyone who knew or cared about what she did and even Emet forgives her in his own way. There is no one who hates her and by the end of it none who considers her choices to even be questionable.

2) The writing to achieve the closed time loop came across as horribly contrived. I know we're supposed to critique the story and not the writing, but in this case it's difficult because it was so blatantly obvious that the goal was to have everything come 'full circle' to the extent of having a literal mind wiping plot device. Going back to #1, this is particularly problematic if you didn't approve of what Venat did. The game still strong arms you into this 12k year BFF relationship with her by the end, as if you've always been in this together, like it's something beautiful rather than repulsive.

I also think they've written themselves into an awkward position with Azem. Not only do we know from ShB that Azem had ghosted Venat, but of the two Azems we know of, the WoL and Ardbert, both have gone above and beyond to save their friends and their world. It's completely unbelievable that Azem would have supported what Venat did, which makes the writing of the WoL's relationship with her in EW incredibly problematic.

[Rokke]

And I'm pretty sure I already pointed out your screenshot showed nothing more they're dressing wrongful act with pretty words, and you're ignoring it.

Like said, there is a researcher during the MSQ who clearly adore and respect Venat a lot, and because of that he literally said he can not wait for the day she kill herself because it will be beautiful. That's a mess up thing to say, calling it beautiful doesn't make it so, and because such perception is the norm in Ancient society that's why it is a problem.

You are equating killing oneself in our terms to their act of ending their life. They are immortal. They can see souls and their "journey" in the afterlife. To live a long, amazing life then willingly ending your immortality to replenish the planet's lifeforce so that others can live as you did is poetic. Its not unlike the speech Mufasa gives Simba about the circle of life. That is their circle of life.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And I'm pretty sure I already pointed out your screenshot showed nothing more they're dressing wrongful act with pretty words, and you're ignoring it.

Like said, there is a researcher during the MSQ who clearly adore and respect Venat a lot, and because of that he literally said he can not wait for the day she kill herself because it will be beautiful. That's a mess up thing to say, calling it beautiful doesn't make it so, and because such perception is the norm in Ancient society that's why it is a problem.

Im not ignoring it, its just an incredibly ignorant statement. They did the most they could to respect the death of creations and pass them on. Thats more than can be said for most of the people in the sundered world who slaughter animals left and right without a second thought. The problem with a lot of your and multiple people in this thread's line of thinking is youre looking at things and comparing them to irl morals and values and way of living. The ancients are completely different from that, theyre a fantasy race. Someone else already explained the venat statement well so i wont go over that but ive literally given you in game citations. The ancients did more than again, ironworks did which is something you seem to be ignoring. Dont forget ironworks was willing to sacrifice literally an entire timeline to bring the wol back. That goes against the themes of the story but they still did it and wrote it. Its a case of its okay when the protagonists do it but when the antagonists do it, its wrong. I really fail to see how its a wrongful act, especially after seeing in Pandaemonium that not everyone just outright gave up on failed creations. Lahabrea took them in, in an attempt to help them and fix them. They didnt just immediately kill them off youre being purposely oblivious when my citations literally state they cared for all life. So much so they sacrificed themselves to bring it back.

Were you not paying attention to the whole post Elpis cutscene? Venat admits she is a monster and nothing she did was just or righteous, it was necessary for Man to move forward and overcome despair. She doesn't consider herself a hero or good, she did what she thought was necessary and accepts the condemnation for it, one reason she didn't show her primal form was so she wouldn't be the embodiment of hydaelyn but that the crystal itself would.

Emet even comments on this after he's "revived" saying that Venat brought Man further then they could have; he says this after coming back from spending the past what 20k years living through the sundering and then regaining his memories from Elpis.

The problem with all of this is, i think people would hate this part of the story less if the game itself actually paintd her as what she herself says she is. What she did was wrong shes a monster etc. Instead the game goes out of her way to paint her as some benevolent sparkly queen goddess who could do no wrong, which even her minion alludes to. It's kind of a slap in the face especially when Zodiark was the one who was really keeping everyone safe and he gets 0 credit. It's all hydaelyn and venat. I think its a big case of either the writers playing favorites or them writing the story that way as to not make the players angry who like her.