Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[Raven2014]

You are equating killing oneself in our terms to their act of ending their life.

Because that's exactly what it is? I mean ... that's why Herme was so reluctant to take over the Fernadel's office due to what it is implying for the current office holder. Venat was CLEARLY taken back and uncomfortable when she was pressed for "her own end". She is someone clear want to continue living, yet being pressured toward her death. And yes it is death, call it whatever you want, but if look like a duck, walk like a duck, and quak like a duck then it is a duck.


Like I said Herme and Venat represented the "normal" view toward death to contradict the "warped" view of the ancient society. I mean ... Milteon was doing what she did also due to a warped view of life and death. She's not killing the world out of malicious intent, she think she's simply saving men from the suffering of living.

Im not ignoring it, its just an incredibly ignorant statement. They did the most they could to respect the death of creations and pass them on.

The problem is ... they are the killer more often then not. If someone murder you because they think you're unfit for society, would that be ok as long as they "pay respect" to you afterward? Since I do believe you're ignoring the MSG, here is the snippet from one of the quest in Elpis:

You learn that a third-generation charybdis is unable to fly due to its aetheric balance leaning strongly towards water. Though the observer in charge wishes to revert the specimen and its kind, having deemed them a lost cause, Hermes is loath to give up on them, and offers to transform in order to guide the creature skyward. The proposal is met with shock and dismay, for transforming in public is considered vainglorious and unseemly. While Hermes seems willing to bear the shame if it means saving the creatures, Emet-Selch is not wholly convinced. It is then that Hythlodaeus conceives of a solution. For this, he sends Emet-Selch off with the charybdis, while you and the others remain to assist him with the necessary preparations.


While the observer is impressed that the charybdis can in fact fly, he remains of the opinion that it would be better to simply have their concept adjusted. Hermes, however, is adamant that they continue to be given a chance to prove themselves a worthy addition to the star, and his underling acquiesces before taking his leave. With that, Hermes declares all his present tasks complete, and you set off together back to Anagnorisis.

This clearly show the contrast on the view of life between Herme and the society norm.

[Rokke]

Because that's exactly what it is? I mean ... that's why Herme was so reluctant to take over the Fernadel's office due to what it is implying for the current office holder. Venat was CLEARLY taken back and uncomfortable when she was pressed for "her own end". She is someone clear want to continue living, yet being pressured toward her death. And yes it is death, call it whatever you want, but if look like a duck, walk like a duck, and quak like a duck then it is a duck.


Like I said Herme and Venat represented the "normal" view toward death to contradict the "warped" view of the ancient society. I mean ... Milteon was doing what she did also due to a warped view of life and death. She's not killing the world out of malicious intent, she think she's simply saving men from the suffering of living.

Disney managed to teach small children the circle of life so I didn't think I'd need to explain it on the forums.

lions in the lion king: Antelope eat grass, lions eat antelope, when lions die their bodies nourish grass. Their death is an important part of the circle and that circle keeps their lands healthy.

ancients in the unsundered world: Live a long life to better the planet, die and send soul into the lifestream, soul finds new life in reincarnation. The reincarnation cycle keeps the planet healthy, it needs souls (hence why Meteion hoarded them to "kill" planets. No souls = no new life could flourish). It was "beautiful" for 2 reasons:
1. It marks the end of one great journey and the inevitable start of a new one
Paraphrasing Hythlodaeus:
"I want to dedicate my life to helping my friends achieve their dreams. When we're all old and feel fufilled, we will leave [this world] together."
Its not that he was happily gunning towards their death or that he was fantasizing about a suicide pact, it was the idea that 3 close friends would acknowledge their journeys end together and inevitably give way to 3 new journeys.

Venat felt her journey was not over. The ancients did not force her to continue the reincarnation cycle, it was her prerogative to continue her life as she saw fit for as long as she wanted to continue. Hermes focused exclusively on death being loss. To him, death was the end of all ends. We know otherwise. The ancients know otherwise. The scions know otherwise. To quote this expansion's theme song: "Though you will weep, the winds rise again, for this journey’s end is but one step forward to tomorrow". When we part with Hyth this final time he tells us that he hopes to see us in this life or in the next. When Amon sinks into the sea we tell him we'll help him find his answers in his next life. Death is not the end. The last 2 expansions have beaten us over the head with the idea that death is not the end.


2. They could physically watch a soul join/leave the lifestream
The physical act of witnessing a soul join the lifestream is a thing that they could do. Some ancients could see souls clearer than others (Emet + Hyth), but the ability to see souls was not uncommon. Emet's short story shows that he used to enjoy watching the lights and colors flow. If every soul has its own unique color then to those that could see the lifestream it likely looked akin to a great rainbow river.

[Raven2014]

Disney managed to teach small children the circle of life so I didn't think I'd need to explain it on the forums.

lions in the lion king: Antelope eat grass, lions eat antelope, when lions die their bodies nourish grass. Their death is an important part of the circle and that circle keeps their lands healthy.

And ... what ... does this exactly have anything to do with FF14 story?

[KizuyaKatogami]

And ... what ... does this exactly have anything to do with FF14 story?

If you continue reading what she posted you’d know the connection to 14.

[Rokke]

And ... what ... does this exactly have anything to do with FF14 story?

You are struggling to wrap your head around how the ancients saw death and that is almost 1:1 with how the ancients saw death.

You will live. You will die. In death you will nourish the planet. You will live again. You will die again. In death you will nourish the planet. Its a circle. If we stop feeding the circle it will stop spinning and if it stops spinning the planet will wilt and die. According to the game's timeline we (the final Azem) have lived and died and lived and died and lived and died for over 12,000 years. Assuming nothing interrupts the great reincarnation cycle we will continue to feed that circle until the universe itself keels over.

[Raven2014]

You are struggling to wrap your head around how the ancients saw death and that is almost 1:1 with how the ancients saw death.

The only thing I'm struggling to wrap my head around is why you're so insistent to take the story out of its context.

Ok, put it this way: if there is a society in real life that look like the ancient, I am of the belief that they will not go toward their doom but will reach enlightenment instead - there, happy? However, I will not impose that to the story, it's called breaking the 4th wall. Once you do, then yes everything stop making sense. For example, the truth teh Ea discovered is like ... what? I mean we're hardly an enlighten species and we already know the universe gonna eventually end, the core of the planets will eventually cool and the sun will eventually run out of fuel ... and I don't see we spelling doom and gloom. You meant to tell me a specie that had transcended physical existence like the Ea decided to off themselves because of that ... common that's just ... stupid.


The ability to take thing in context is why I can enjoy the story as it is presented, instead of breaking the 4th wall and impose my own interpretation. When I see the ancient has a warped view on death and callous attitude toward death, I'm simply re-telling the view of the "in-game character" (Herme and Venat). When I say the Ancient society as it is would go down the path of ruin, that's not my belief of such a society in real life would have that fate. It is because the game has gone to great length to convey the message that it's a much proven scenario with all of those death world.

[Rokke]

The only thing I'm struggling to wrap my head around is why you're so insistent to take the story out of its context.

Ok, put it this way: if there is a society in real life that look like the ancient, I am of the belief that they will not go toward their doom but will reach enlightenment instead - there, happy? However, I will not impose that to the story, it's called breaking the 4th wall. Once you do, then yes everything stop making sense. For example, the truth teh Ea discovered is like ... what? I mean we're hardly an enlighten species and we already know the universe gonna eventually end, the core of the planets will eventually cool and the sun will eventually run out of fuel ... and I don't see we spelling doom and gloom. You meant to tell me a specie that had transcended physical existence like the Ea decided to off themselves because of that ... common that's just ... stupid.


The ability to take thing in context is why I can enjoy the story as it is presented, instead of breaking the 4th wall and impose my own interpretation. When I see the ancient has a warped view on death and callous attitude toward death, I'm simply re-telling the view of the "in-game character" (Herme and Venat). When I say the Ancient society as it is would go down the path of ruin, that's not my belief of such a society in real life would have that fate. It is because the game has gone to great length to convey the message that it's a much proven scenario with all of those death world.

Pointing out the messages the game is trying to tell you is not taking things out of context...its literally just pointing at parts of the story. You take this expansion and then look at it with what we've learned from those prior, from the bonus short stories, from their interviews and Q&As and go "A-ha! I see what they were going for!"

Out of curiosity, why do you think we are given the option to promise Hermes that we'll show him the meaning of life together? Without "breaking the 4th wall" death is the end, is it not?

[Raven2014]

Pointing out the messages the game is trying to tell you is not taking things out of context...its literally just pointing at parts of the story.

Then why are you arguing the exact opposite of the game message then? The message is pretty bleak: perfection is a dead-end, there is no enlightenment and salvation is a lie. Life is a constant struggle and suffering but find the will to live through it anyway.

Do I believe it as a person? No. Do I believe it in the game? Yes. That's why within the story context, the Ancient culture is portrait-ed (to the players) as one being on the "wrong path", and thus must be corrected before meeting its ultimate demise. That's why Venat tried to convince them to accept suffering, and when they rejected it, she took away their wing to paradise and force them to walk because within the in game logic, such paradise eventually gonna end up like Ra'Ha.

That's the story logic, irregardless of what our real life logic dictate.

Out of curiosity, why do you think we are given the option to promise Hermes that we'll show him the meaning of life together? Without "breaking the 4th wall" death is the end, is it not?

Uh ... no. The cycle of rebirth is an in game concept, so why would that breaking the 4th wall. Again, I noticed you guy never address the conflict I had brought up in the MSQ, Venat was clearly uncomfortable when other pressed her to end her life. Herme was apparel at the callousness of his fellow ancients. I don't need to break any 4th wall.

[HappyHubris]

How so? That was already in motion? And why are the Ancients all of a sudden this hyper perfect society? They are creepy af. Hermes' story is exactly about that. Their empathy is lacking and they only care about their race and their purpose.

Are you "creepy AF" or lacking empathy for consuming factory-farmed animal meat? That causes way more suffering and fear than reversing a few magic test creatures. Would you be upset if someone let an incoming meter wipe us out due to our animal farming?

That's essentially what you're advocating for.

[Rokke]

Then why are you arguing the exact opposite of the game message then? The message is pretty bleak: perfection is a dead-end, there is no enlightenment and salvation is a lie. Life is a constant struggle and suffering but find the will to live through it anyway.

Do I believe it as a person? No. Do I believe it in the game? Yes. That's why within the story context, the Ancient culture is portrait-ed (to the players) as one being on the "wrong path", and thus must be corrected before meeting its ultimate demise. That's why Venat tried to convince them to accept suffering, and when they rejected it, she took away their wing to paradise and force them to walk because within the in game logic, such paradise eventually gonna end up like Ra'Ha.

That's the story logic, irregardless of what our real life logic dictate.

Uh ... no. The cycle of rebirth is an in game concept, so why would that breaking the 4th wall. Again, I noticed you guy never address the conflict I had brought up in the MSQ, Venat was clearly uncomfortable when other pressed her to end her life. Herme was apparel at the callousness of his fellow ancients. I don't need to break any 4th wall.

All right so we're back on track!

Yes, the cycle of rebirth is in game! Its described as something that flows and we get a wonderful pov shot from what appears to be underwater with Hyth and Emet talking at some point in msq.

Now take that knowledge and apply what we learn from the following zone: souls are needed to keep the cycle of rebirth spinning. What was Meteion doing with the souls on those dead planets? She was hoarding them. Why? Because if she stopped the flow of the souls the cycle wouldn't be able to continue. Its the ciiiiiiircleee of liiiiiiifffffeeee We need souls to re-enter the lifestream at some point or another to keep the waters a running. How do we get souls into the lifestream? Stuff needs to die. If a population is immortal, how could they end up in the lifestream? Why...they would need to willfully end their life. Hey, that sounds kinda familiar...where did we hear about that...


Stopping the circle (Endwalker) is bad.
Trying to spin the circle in reverse (Shadowbringers) is also bad.

The issue with the ancients was not that they saw life/death as beautiful, it was that they were so used to being able to name a time and place for death that they had no idea how to deal with anything less than perfect and would rather frantically slap the undo button than try to figure things out. This new, largescale death was scary because it offered no catharsis, it offered no chance to say goodbye, it offered no option to keep living if you felt you still had more to give. Thats why the ghosts on the moon act the way they do. Thats why the folks lining up for the sacrifice wanted to go back to how things were. They couldn't deal with sudden change. They didn't know how to handle a curveball thrown at them because they'd never seen one before.

Venat did not dispute the circle of life as a whole, she just felt like her personal journey was not yet over when she retired, she still wanted to travel, to see new sights, to learn new things. She dies fulfilled after we beat her- with her ancient promise complete, her great journey finally ends and gives way for a new one.

Hermes saw death as the end. He couldn't accept the circle because he could only rationalize a line with a start and end point. I really liked the option we got to offer to help him in his next life for that very reason: we (the hero) can help him see the beauty in life and death. Because we're the hero. Thats what this expansion has taught us is The Right Thing.