Tank healing is to high

[J-Reyno]

Then the dps part of the healer's kit should get expanded upon so that agency "transfer" leaves them with something satisfying to do.

Agree with this completely, and that's what healers should be asking for instead of tank nerfs.

[Shalan]

Agree with this completely, and that's what healers should be asking for instead of tank nerfs.

If you've been paying attention to healer discussions you'll know that we've been asking for that for years only to be repeatedly told that's not happening. People aren't asking for tank healing nerfs because they don't want a more robust DPS kit, they're asking for it because they know we won't get a more robust DPS kit.

I'd personally love a return to more support abilities for healers and a more rounded out DPS kit. Hell, I'd celebrate the return of the old Cleric Stance dance at this point, but we've been down this road repeatedly over the last few years of complaining and been stonewalled or outright rejected every time. At some point, we had to face the music that we're not getting a more complex DPS kit back like we used to have.

[J-Reyno]

If you've been paying attention to healer discussions you'll know that we've been asking for that for years only to be repeatedly told that's not happening. People aren't asking for tank healing nerfs because they don't want a more robust DPS kit, they're asking for it because they know we won't get a more robust DPS kit.

I'd personally love a return to more support abilities for healers and a more rounded out DPS kit. Hell, I'd celebrate the return of the old Cleric Stance dance at this point, but we've been down this road repeatedly over the last few years of complaining and been stonewalled or outright rejected every time. At some point, we had to face the music that we're not getting a more complex DPS kit back like we used to have.

I get feeling like it's not going to change, but nerfing tanks to further support flawed design choices is not the way to go imo. If it's not going to solve the problem with healer design then it's just a tiny bandaid for a gaping wound and it'll only serve to make one role feel a lot worse while not actually improving the other.

[HyperiusUltima]

For one, in case people missed the VOD of an all Tank EX1 Clear, look it up on Youtube. They probably do need to nerf some of the self-healing on WAR despite it already having basically all the self-healing in the world that they could throw on themselves among other CDs(and one that's 25s, no doubt).

I generally think that Tank healing feels high only because of WAR's high potencies and PLD's self-sustain, whereas GNB doesn't have as much outside of HoC and Brutal Shell and DRK? Basically has next to none and relies on shields. Thinking about it, this is lopsided in terms of how tanks feel to run when it comes to their CDs.

[Lyth]

The underlying problem is that while this is a team-based game, players don't want to rely on teamwork to succeed.

Roles don't need to be completely rigid. But the balance has been tipped so far to the extreme that you will drive players away from healing. I can appreciate that soloing content or all tank runs have always been an area of niche interest, but that's only interesting when it's hard to do, and doable only on content that you significantly outgear.

It's really not about 'nerfs' and taking away your favorite toys. It's about letting all three roles have something of value that they can contribute by not grossly trespassing across role boundaries. Otherwise, you might as well get rid of roles, and let everybody do everything equally well.

[Valknut]

I have never met a healer that has been legit angry at how little damage I take on any tank. In fact some might just say its our job to not take as much damage as possible. Yes it can go to far to one direction where a healer might feel like they have to do to little. I haven't met a healer that cared their dungeon group was easy and fast though?

[ThorneDynasty]

Agree with this completely, and that's what healers should be asking for instead of tank nerfs.

I can understand asking for more healing too instead, but I don't think people are being realistic when they demand it needs to all go away (and not just nerfing individual broken skills). Removing tank sustain won't fix anything unless you practically take it all off, which doesn't seem likely. To really make healing interesting you'd have to do more than rebalance the jobs themselves too and rework every instance. At best a couple of fights are going to get tiny changes to their scripting, but that's all it's going to be. It's frankly incredibly unlikely even when they make a whole new batch of encounters next expansion. I just don't see the entire paradigm changing like that mid-game or them going back to rescript the old content to make it match.

And getting hostile over the notion DRK should be brought up to at least something resembling the other tanks is just some weird cycle of abuse thing. Being bored 80% percent of the time but once in a while a DRK shows up isn't the right way to "keep" your role interesting.

[Lyth]

I agree that mitigation is a fundamental part of tanking. I've seen plenty of discussion on the forums about having more challenging damage patterns which require precise cooldown use. It's extremely satisfying to be able to negate a big hit with a well timed defensive move, which is why TBN gets so much attention regardless of its actual defensive power.

That being said, mitigation is not the same as self-sustain. A tank using only damage reduction moves will eventually succumb to attrition. That's where your healer comes in. Your mitigation moves and your healer's sustain work in synergy to keep you alive. And classically, if either of you fail at that, the boss kills you and rips through your party in seconds. That's what makes tanks and healers valued.

Right now, that synergy exists instead between DPS and healers. You pop your timed defensive move to keep you safe through the big raidwide, and your healers keep you topped off.

No healer will object to you being a supertank and not requiring healer input. But if it's trivial enough that most players are doing it, then it's not good for either role in the long run. You really want to move in the opposite direction - one in which tanking and healing are unforgiving and high skill. Otherwise, you just won't be in demand other than as a warm body to queue with.

[ssunny2008]

Removing tank sustain won't fix anything unless you practically take it all off, which doesn't seem likely. To really make healing interesting you'd have to do more than rebalance the jobs themselves too and rework every instance.

Big self-sustain on tanks just needs a con, not advanced as the things we got.

- Something comparable to clemency aka ressource and damage-loss. You don´t want to use it, but you can if e.g. your healer needs to rezz.
- Or something comparable to Living Dead. Just made as emergency button, of course not always "you gonna die", but maybe 15s 30% less damage output while under its effect?!
- High cooldowns like the invuls have.

Otherwise they could reduce the amount of overall defs and give us a decent rotation with buffs back. Just give every tank 2 unique defs on top to work with.

Nothing is wrong with self-sustain as emergency-tools or with drawbacks if you can use them multiple times. But being like "6-8 defs + 123 heal = gg" is clearly wrong.

[Shurrikhan]

I would recommend actually leveling WAR and playing with Bloodwhetting before you pass judgement on it.

I have a 90 Warrior. I've had one since week 1 of EW. I do all tanks and Maiming on one char, and at least one tank, my healers, and non-maiming DPS on the other, alt-holic character (this one) in the order they interest or convenience me. WAR was the second job I leveled to cap both in ShB and EW. But by all means, assume disagreement about how much healing tanks should have, or by what means they should have it, must come from inexperience...