Tank healing is to high

[Naizakane]

Nascent was a 50% self-heal. It could full-heal you only if you dealt twice your HP in damage in that GCD. And you certainly didn't do n times as much as your ST damage in AoE, whereas current Bloodletter will simply heal for 400 per target.

Note also that any inherent crit skill will auto-crit its heal, too. Chaotic Cyclone's relative contribution is nearly as strong as before. Against even just 8 mobs, it makes for a 4800-potency heal. The difference is that the base is so much higher and it doesn't actually need damage; you don't have to hit for nearly as much to full-heal yourself, even in a single GCD, now as you did then.

In multi-pack AoE pulls, you effectively self-Bene with each GCD even without banked resources. Old Nascent was strong, but not to that degree.


This is only true if your ppgcd is under 800 (50% thereof being 400). But, IR Fell Cleaves are already worth a relative almost 950 potency, given its modifiers before accounting for crit chance value wasted. Primal Rush is a relative 1444 potency at a 1.5x Crit modifier.

Given that IR is now on a 1-minute cooldown, and you could certainly have an extra 100 gauge (or 50 + Infuriate, etc.) twice per minute, the new version is a decrease in sustain for single-target.

tl;dr: No. It's the opposite. Bloodwhetting's AoE healing floor increased greatly relative to old Nascent, as you'd not likely have been doing 800 relative potency per GCD per target. Its ST floor decreased, as you easily could exceed 800 relative potency per GCD in ST.

Bloodwhetting is better in ST than Nascent was imo, as you won't always be able to bank resources: For example, you've spent all those resources in a burst window and you've got a tankbuster coming up. With Nascent, you'd be healing for a very small amount, as all you'd really have is 1 FC if we're being generous and then whatever your next 2 combo GCDs are, and one of them would either be Heavy Swing or Maim and not give you much HP back. With Bloodwhetting in that same scenario, the Heavy Swing/Maim would drop a 400 potency heal on you, which is definitely going to be more than old Nascent would have given you. Either way, you still have Equilibrium or Thrill + Equlibrium for ST healing, so it's not like the difference matters much.

[Shurrikhan]

Bloodwhetting is better in ST than Nascent was imo, as you won't always be able to bank resources: For example, you've spent all those resources in a burst window and you've got a tankbuster coming up. With Nascent, you'd be healing for a very small amount, as all you'd really have is 1 FC if we're being generous and then whatever your next 2 combo GCDs are, and one of them would either be Heavy Swing or Maim and not give you much HP back. With Bloodwhetting in that same scenario, the Heavy Swing/Maim would drop a 400 potency heal on you, which is definitely going to be more than old Nascent would have given you. Either way, you still have Equilibrium or Thrill + Equlibrium for ST healing, so it's not like the difference matters much.

I'm looking at the differences in design, not duration. There's no reason to think that Bloodwhetting could not have been given an 8s duration in Endwalker if it had been, as ShB Nascent before it, a 50% damage-as-healing effect.

:: Correction from before: I'd meant to write "ceiling", not "floor" for what decreased for ST. The ST floor went up, greatly decreasing the penalty for mismanaging Bloodwhetting windows. The ST ceiling decreased. Both the AoE floor and ceiling increased.

The floor is higher (again, my bad on the typo), but the ceiling is lower, especially in the current contexts of modern IR. Again, Fell Cleave does a relative 950, for ~19% more healing per GCD than the flat value. Inner Chaos does 1340. Primal Rush does 1444. At two Bloodwhetting casts per minute, you essentially need never drop below an average of 1000 potency per GCD for the length of Bloodwhetting, meaning you'd get at least 20% more healing from a percent-of-damage design than the flat heal per weaponskill hit.

Imo, that leaves the new design, the flat heal per weaponskill hit, overtuned in AoE (and relatively undertuned, compared to said AoE capacity, in ST). I'd much prefer the healing scale as damage does--i.e., not be linearly increased by target count. Such is more intuitive, even if it does remove some super niche cases (my healer is dead in a dungeon and I mismanaged CDs) to make two-target AoEs preferable to ST damage.

[Naizakane]

I'm looking at the differences in design, not duration. There's no reason to think that Bloodwhetting could not have been given an 8s duration in Endwalker if it had been, as ShB Nascent before it, a 50% damage-as-healing effect.

:: Correction from before: I'd meant to write "ceiling", not "floor" for what decreased for ST. The ST floor went up, greatly decreasing the penalty for mismanaging Bloodwhetting windows. The ST ceiling decreased. Both the AoE floor and ceiling increased.

The floor is higher (again, my bad on the typo), but the ceiling is lower, especially in the current contexts of modern IR. Again, Fell Cleave does a relative 950, for ~19% more healing per GCD than the flat value. Inner Chaos does 1340. Primal Rush does 1444. At two Bloodwhetting casts per minute, you essentially need never drop below an average of 1000 potency per GCD for the length of Bloodwhetting, meaning you'd get at least 20% more healing from a percent-of-damage design than the flat heal per weaponskill hit.

Imo, that leaves the new design, the flat heal per weaponskill hit, overtuned in AoE (and relatively undertuned, compared to said AoE capacity, in ST). I'd much prefer the healing scale as damage does--i.e., not be linearly increased by target count. Such is more intuitive, even if it does remove some super niche cases (my healer is dead in a dungeon and I mismanaged CDs) to make two-target AoEs preferable to ST damage.

I think it's better off this way, honestly. Gives you more survivability in dungeon packs, while you can use BW along with other tools to sustain yourself in single target. It needs to be as strong as it is in AoE anyway, I think, as the Stem the Flow and Stem the Tide effects make it the first new mitigation button Warrior's got since Stormblood.

[Shurrikhan]

I think it's better off this way, honestly. Gives you more survivability in dungeon packs, while you can use BW along with other tools to sustain yourself in single target. It needs to be as strong as it is in AoE anyway, I think, as the Stem the Flow and Stem the Tide effects make it the first new mitigation button Warrior's got since Stormblood.

That's fair, I guess, since the shield certainly doesn't scale. I guess I'm just a bit miffed at the "let's throw All tHe tHiNgs into 25s CD (but not DRK's, ofc, because it's not technically 25s)" design philosophy of Endwalker. I'd have preferred it was just straight up life-steal with no shield, for purposes of identity and rewarding banked offensive resource, as had until now been traditional for Warrior.



Or to put it another way, we'll have to agree to disagree in regard to Bloodwhetting needing to be as strong as it is in AoE (essentially, Hallowed Ground per 25s) or that it needs it shield atop its more WAR-flavored means of recovery. Personally, I'd prefer to see WAR get back its higher HP pool and for abilities like Raw Intuition to be nothing but self-heal from damage dealt--clean, simple, and iconic.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

Being a healer atm feels pretty bad esp in a dungeon run with a warrior. You don't need to do a thing so you are stuck with 1111111. I agree with people saying the bosses etc should be doing more damage though rather than removing the nice self sustain feel from the tanks. But we all know SE will never make content difficult to heal or hit harder because of people unable to push ogcd's to heal properly. They rather spam eukrasian diagnosis till out of mana and forget lucid dream even exists till the tank dies.

Seriously, the amount of people I have seen on reddit and twitter that are saying how much they struggle to heal is baffling. Literally the easiest thing to do when the tank (minus DRK) does 90% of the healing for you. 2 minutes reading of tool tips and you should be capable of healing a double pull. I healed as sch yday, the one healer I refused to play the past two years, with half my skills missing from my hotbar and the rest all over the place and still managed to heal double pulls fine. Bit depressing how low the average skill level seems to be for people.

[Praesul]

Imo it's a good direction for tanks to have more agency. Healers have traditionally held so much of the weight in a lot of the difficult content, it's good to put some of that power into the tank's themselves so they can worry about themselves. Now it's more obvious when tanks are good at using their mitigation and sustainability, something that most people haven't seemed to care about as the game has evolved over the years. If they're going to remove enmity management, stance dancing, and more complex rotation then they SHOULD make self-survivability, positioning, movement and DPS the point of skilled play.

Healers still have massive aoe heals, they still have the best oh shit buttons, they can raise, they have the best LB for recovery (go figure). Great healers were already mapping out their off GCDs to spent the minimal amount of healing they could get away with, at the top end this doesn't change much other than giving healers more resources to spend on the party rather than the tank. For the beginners, it gives them actual room to improve and stand out.

Dungeon play has always been a breeze anyway, it's not like nascent flash didn't already make me invincible during pulls. It was shorter duration yes, and you needed to dump resources to get the MAD HEALING but people forget the incoming damage was never high enough to justify the crazy healing regardless, so overpower and mythril tempest was often enough on its own to keep you going. Unless you count meme no healer expert roulette runs, in which case yeah you had to plan things out a bit better. Reworking Raw Intuition into the skill it is now fixes how mostly worthless it was before, and cements WAR's self-healing identity a LOT earlier than before.

Really DRK is the odd man out here, and I think most of us can agree it needs some extra tuning. Whether they went to push it in the direction of self-healing or double down on the "preventing the damage before it happens in the first place" style it is now, they should be given more agency and power budget. Not less.

[TheOperator3712]

That's fair, I guess, since the shield certainly doesn't scale. I guess I'm just a bit miffed at the "let's throw All tHe tHiNgs into 25s CD (but not DRK's, ofc, because it's not technically 25s)" design philosophy of Endwalker. I'd have preferred it was just straight up life-steal with no shield, for purposes of identity and rewarding banked offensive resource, as had until now been traditional for Warrior.



Or to put it another way, we'll have to agree to disagree in regard to Bloodwhetting needing to be as strong as it is in AoE (essentially, Hallowed Ground per 25s) or that it needs it shield atop its more WAR-flavored means of recovery. Personally, I'd prefer to see WAR get back its higher HP pool and for abilities like Raw Intuition to be nothing but self-heal from damage dealt--clean, simple, and iconic.

I would recommend actually leveling WAR and playing with Bloodwhetting before you pass judgement on it. It seems like a nerf on paper, but the ceiling on Nascent in ShB was way higher than it needed to be. You often ended up overhealing a significant amount in ShB, especially in AoE. As it currently sits, you still want to use Inner Chaos and Primal Rend in Bloodwhetting if possible. However, unlike before you don't need to use such high potency skills to see any real healing in single target. In AoE, as I said before you could always heal up to full with a decent sized pack. A Mythril Tempest on 8 enemies might have only been an 800 potency heal, but Equilibrium was only 1200 potency in ShB and that could still pop you up to full most of the time.

[Kalaam]

Then the dps part of the healer's kit should get expanded upon so that agency "transfer" leaves them with something satisfying to do.
That or DPS have to start taking damage because of mechanics that are unavoidable.

[Gallus]

I'm fine with tanks getting new self sustaining tools, but you can't do that and leave healers with 2 button DPS rotations u,u.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Imo it's a good direction for tanks to have more agency. Healers have traditionally held so much of the weight in a lot of the difficult content, it's good to put some of that power into the tank's themselves so they can worry about themselves. Now it's more obvious when tanks are good at using their mitigation and sustainability, something that most people haven't seemed to care about as the game has evolved over the years. If they're going to remove enmity management, stance dancing, and more complex rotation then they SHOULD make self-survivability, positioning, movement and DPS the point of skilled play.

Healers still have massive aoe heals, they still have the best oh shit buttons, they can raise, they have the best LB for recovery (go figure). Great healers were already mapping out their off GCDs to spent the minimal amount of healing they could get away with, at the top end this doesn't change much other than giving healers more resources to spend on the party rather than the tank. For the beginners, it gives them actual room to improve and stand out.

Dungeon play has always been a breeze anyway, it's not like nascent flash didn't already make me invincible during pulls. It was shorter duration yes, and you needed to dump resources to get the MAD HEALING but people forget the incoming damage was never high enough to justify the crazy healing regardless, so overpower and mythril tempest was often enough on its own to keep you going. Unless you count meme no healer expert roulette runs, in which case yeah you had to plan things out a bit better. Reworking Raw Intuition into the skill it is now fixes how mostly worthless it was before, and cements WAR's self-healing identity a LOT earlier than before.

Really DRK is the odd man out here, and I think most of us can agree it needs some extra tuning. Whether they went to push it in the direction of self-healing or double down on the "preventing the damage before it happens in the first place" style it is now, they should be given more agency and power budget. Not less.

The thing with this is then, if they were going to give tanks and dps more heals and mitigations then wtf is the healers job supposed to be? Supporting and dps? Then why didn’t their dps get touched in more and be given more options and dps buttons to press. Now with the way it is healers barely even heal and people have already done both ex trials without any healers due to the crazy dps and tank heals available. Healers we’re already on suicide watch now it’s even worse.