The Bizarre Lack of Development and Pathos Concerning Zenos [6.0 Spoilers]

[Vuro]

Why do we feel the need to force an idea of being a "good person" on everybody?

Did you even read my post? I doubt it, because this has literally nothing to do with finding the goodness in Zenos or reforming him. Maybe do more than skim the text and try again if you're going to bother replying at all lmao.

[Theox]

Did you even read my post? I doubt it, because this has literally nothing to do with finding the goodness in Zenos or reforming him. Maybe do more than skim the text and try again if you're going to bother replying at all lmao.

It wasn't a direct reply to your post. I didn't quote you specifically dummy

[Anonymoose]

Why is Zenos the only antagonist who the player is not explicitly asked or expected to empathize with?

Because every other antagonist saw themselves as the central good guy in a story full of purpose and meaning, so a scene where we fully see them as they see themselves - realizing why they were our villain and why they lost to us - is satisfying.

Zenos doesn't. He has no use for that moment. He doesn't care.

Would you be “happier” had I a “good reason monologue”? If my motives peroration met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?

What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of his existence must be gleaned by us and us alone.

[nighttimebunny]

I think the ending was a cliffhanger and they want to continue his story/develop him in some way. We've already established that he is immortal, and given the circumstances of the environment he died in, the writers could bring him back if they want to. Him not breathing means...nothing.

As it stands, his character was neglected by the writers, and they may do something interesting with him. I really do hope so.

[StriderShinryu]

You can easily write Zenos out of the final boss fight without a change to the story other than Zenos showing up.

Eh, you could actually easily write Zenos out of the entire storyline after he offed himself in the Garden and basically nothing in the story would change. Everything that he was involved in post-suicide could have easily been written to involve someone else and no one would have been the wiser.

[Vyrerus]

It's somewhat funny. Zenos actually already is a sympathetic character if you can relate to him on a personal, rather than in-universe character based level. I mean, sympathy and empathy aren't just actions that we take. They're acted upon feelings, and feelings are thoroughly subjective.

I related to Zenos right away in Stormblood. Instantly saw him for being bored to the point of depression. I was actually coming to end of a 6 year bout with depression myself at the time(though it was actually a duo playthrough of Scholar of the First Sin with my good friend later in the year that finally put that segment of my life to rest). I didn't like him yet, but he grew on me because of that(And I mean I was screaming bloody murder and bullshit my first time through each time he beat us). I'm not the best raider in the world, but without fresh, hard fights in the game I get very bored and start to dislike the game.

What they did with him post 4.0 was essentially had him go on his own personal journey for his own motivation. I found myself thinking after I'd defeated him and watched my brother also defeat him, "Did they really just basically write, "The Villain's Journey?" Sort of a parallel to the Hero's Journey, but rather than the call to adventure, it's the, "Call to The Adventurer."

They didn't give us a lot of desired dialogue options for many portions of Endwalker, and regardless of what dialogue option you pick at the end with him, fighting him is still giving him what he desired. That is the best kind of thanks for him, as your words mean far less.

I really enjoyed that they went full Meta with him. He likely could have killed the Scions when he stole our body, but he gingerly walked towards Camp Broken Glass because it was a provocation to try to arouse us to anger to fight him. He proved by his dialogue later when he killed that single Blasphemy that he was already beyond Despair. But then he took what Alisaie said into consideration, showing that he doesn't have all of the answers.

I also think that some people misunderstand what he contributed to the Endwalker Final Day fight. He wasn't just the platform. He allowed us to continue to keep bringing the fight to her. Maybe we could have made a place to stand by manipulating Dynamis, but we needed our all to slay the Endsinger and our Azem Stone party also needed their all to do that as well. For the entire fight, the Endsinger is simultaneously trying to kill us while trying to also get away. Zenos even makes commentary on it, "There's nowhere you can run that we won't catch you."



Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him. Note that he is also the villain who our comrades speak about the least. No one ever really makes an attempt to color or re-color our perception of him.

[HyoMinPark]

He's so unimportant that he was a major antagonist in two expansions; yeah, thinking about how & why he was written the way he was written certainly is a pointless exercise

Hmm. You’d have a point for antagonist in Stormblood (through, I think classifying him as a “major” one is kind of stretching it, since we spent way more time dealing with Yotsuyu as a villain versus him—and 4.x Zenos was just Elidibus in Zenos’s body)—but in Endwalker? He took a major backseat for basically the entire expansion. Fandaniel/Hermès and Meteion were the antagonists. Zenos was just that weird fanboy who harassed our character about fighting him every time he was on camera.

[Vuro]

Vuro, what an excellent post! Thank you so much for taking the time and putting in the effort to write all of that. Thank you also for your compassion and understanding for Zenos. It's quite rare to see it, especially publicly.

Thank you so much for your kind words! <3 I’d love a link to that discord!

How are we cold to Zenos at the end?

I’m referring to the moments before Zenos calls to us, where we’re 100% ready to follow Meteion out of Absolute Horizon without giving Zenos a second thought.

Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him. Note that he is also the villain who our comrades speak about the least. No one ever really makes an attempt to color or re-color our perception of him.

This is a really rad interpretation, so thank you for putting it into words! Although I’m still frustrated by the lack of more obvious pathos for players who struggle with reading between the lines, I really hope your analysis is closer to what the writers’ actual intent was, since their approach to Zenos would make more sense in that case.

It wasn't a direct reply to your post. I didn't quote you specifically dummy

Dude, you replied to my thread without quoting anyone else, meaning you replied to the thread’s first post - my post. Sorry if you’re only just finding out how forums work.

[marrrow]

Because every other antagonist saw themselves as the central good guy in a story full of purpose and meaning, so a scene where we fully see them as they see themselves - realizing why they were our villain and why they lost to us - is satisfying.

Zenos doesn't. He has no use for that moment. He doesn't care.

What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of his existence must be gleaned by us and us alone.

I think that's a lovely way to interpret the narrative we've been given, but I don't think it was either the intention or the most effective approach to telling his story. Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

FF14 may have a very sophisticated narrative & it may leave a lot up to our interpretation, but it is still ultimately quite accessible; the failure to give players any significant opportunities to empathize with Zenos & understand where he's coming from is to its detriment. Likewise, as OP said, it feels incongruous with the story's overally themes of empathy & compassion, even for people like Yotsuyu or Hermes or Amon; why is Zenos outside of this?

[marrrow]

Hmm. You’d have a point for antagonist in Stormblood (through, I think classifying him as a “major” one is kind of stretching it, since we spent way more time dealing with Yotsuyu as a villain versus him—and 4.x Zenos was just Elidibus in Zenos’s body)—but in Endwalker? He took a major backseat for basically the entire expansion. Fandaniel/Hermès and Meteion were the antagonists. Zenos was just that weird fanboy who harassed our character about fighting him every time he was on camera.

Even though he spends relatively little time on-screen in SB, everything that we do is to fulfill his ends; we spend more time dealing with Yotsuyu & Fordola because the entire point of the expansion is that we have nothing to offer him until after we've grown strong enough to overcome all of the obstacles he sets in our path. After all, what are Yotsuyu & Fordola doing but carrying out his will?

As for post-SB--in post-SHB, as OP said, we spent a lot of time emphasizing how important he was going to be in EW; in the promotional materials for EW, he was also heavily emphasized, suggesting that he would be important; he is also present at the lvl 90 trial, & the absolute final fight of the expac is with him. I think this is enough to say that he is--or was meant to be--a significant antagonist. Why he ended up not fulfilling that role is impossible to know, but that doesn't invalidate OP's question about why he wasn't offered the same compassion & empathy that other antagonists receive