The Bizarre Lack of Development and Pathos Concerning Zenos [6.0 Spoilers]

[Lyth]

Why should there need to be pathos around Zenos' character, though?

It's worth going through his scenes from after the Stormblood MSQ. Much like he makes you do this expansion, he manages to fight his way back against all odds to his original body using a borrowed, weakened Imperial Centurion. He puts an end to the threat of the Black Rose and Varis. He spares Gaius and Estinien in an unsolicited 2v1 when it would have been trivial to kill them both. And in a moment of surprising clarity, he completely shuts down Jullus' diatribe non-violently in what was startlingly one of the best bit of dialogue in the MSQ.

'Would you be "happier" had I a good reason? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?'

He is who he is, and unapologetically so. Take it or leave it. He's a fascinating character, and is brimming with potential.

[Crushnight]

Thancred and the others were able to do this by sacrificing their bodies to overcome the emotions. Who exactly did we need to interact with to create a path to the Endsinger? Especially one that moves because she can just fly away from anything we do.

As for Zenos himself, Hermes stated something to the effect of since there is no inherent meaning in life we much make meaning, even if that meaning is to become a genocidal maniac. That’s Zenos. He doesn’t need a redemption arc. He unapologetically had a single goal, and he took it upon himself to achieve that goal. The man is positive nihilism personified. He knew what he wanted, he didn’t care about what others thought, and he was willing to do what it took to get his desire.

Why didn't Garuda fly high and just attack us from the air?

Why didn't Leviathan just attack us from under the sea?

Why didn't Nidhogg just fly up and pelt us with fireballs and his roar especially on the Final Steps of Faith?

Why didn't Innocence fly away he already did once in a cutscene so it wasn't beyond him clearly?

Story/fight segregation, Endsinger would have been no different had we made the platform ourselves, they wouldn't have flown away because the fight wanted us to be able to poke them with our melee attacks.

Zenos being the floor or not, nothing in that fight would've been different, oh sorry except Zenos's self insert opening line of the fight that would've been taken out clearly needed for the story /s

Meteion clearly explained to us what power emotions have in Ultima Thule, it is not impossible for our WoL character to think back on their entire journey and use those emotions to make a platform to fight Endsinger. Thus is Zenos self insert into the finale questionable from a writing standpoint, is it true to his character, yes, does it make sense he would, yes, was it needed for the story at all, no.

That last one is my issue he is superfluous at best for the narrative and that is terrible writing since he has been around for 4-5 years now and his biggest contribution to the plot was in 4.0.

Elidibus is equally guilty of being put on the back burner for too long but at least they did something with him eventually.

Zenos your still waiting and he has had a death, and now a potential death fakeout or 2nd death depending on how people want to interpret it atm.

[Lihtleita]

zenos died with a smile on his face, let him stay dead

[Remedi]

zenos died with a smile on his face, let him stay dead

Sadly the RPR questline makes me think that his fate is rather grim

[Elysidelphi]

Sadly the RPR questline makes me think that his fate is rather grim

Why do you say that?

[Elysidelphi]

Well, I for one can't wait for Zenos to become the next Emet-Selch dividing everyone.

His existence said/says something about us. I dunno what it is just yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back. As if the sunset/sunrise imagery for the fight wasn't enough to suggest there is some kind of cosmic connection! They have been on this dueling-suns morning/evening star track for a while now in the story, the two who cannot coexist (Azim Steppe gods...although naamah (spelling?) was more lunar, I admit). I used to think he was the one Azem sans memories with only the uncontrollable urge to fight the biggest strong people.

That he managed to be less creepy to me than Fandaniel in the dinner scene is something that has stuck with me. Can't put a finger on it. They are both nihilists on the surface, but Zenos is something more. Even though he seems simpler. I don't think he is. ETA: and I am not talking about a tragic backstory. I mean just him as a being.

So well said! And thank you for mentioning that detail about the sunset/sunrise imagery for the fight and the possibility of a cosmic connection. Thank you for pointing it out, such a great yet subtle detail.

[Elysidelphi]

Yes. His purpose is for something more than surficial villain. There are more pathologies tied up in the dinner scene and fallout than in the entire rest of the game except for Venat asking us if our existence was good. It will take time to figure out, but I am going to give him that time.

Good points again.

Someone I was talking to recently pointed out that on the poster for Endwalker, the Scions, Zenos and Venat are arranged/shaped in the form of The Tree of Life or Sefirot. And each character on there represents a different emanation related to The Tree of Life. Zenos would represent Gevurah which means strength and severity; the WoL would represent Chesed which means kindness and mercy; Alisaie who is located between Zenos and the WoL on the poster would represent Tiferet which means harmony and knowledge. So symbolically this would mean that Alisaie would maintain/encourage/create harmony between Zenos and the WoL. And she kind of does with her speech to Zenos which makes him self-reflect.

To quote her:

"Tifaret - Knowledge and Compassion/Beauty finding balance. Literally pretty self explanatory. The balance of conflicting forces Funny that it was Alisiae that got through to Zenos."

"Chesed - Mercy/Compassion - The Warrior of Light. This pretty much sums up Azem's ability to make connections, to repair the world via our connections and why we are saved. those who 'go above and beyond what is normally aquired". The first to attribute action the initiation of action. Very Azem."

"Gevurah - Severity and Strength - The mirror of Chesed's compassion and love. Corresponds to crimson and the element of Fire and burning Absolute adherance to the burning of all ("Burn, burn let it all burn") Overcoming of enemies, without or within"

"Chesed and Gevurah Must act together to create a balance to the soul's approach on the outside world. One cannot live without the other it must be both or it cannot be either."

And if you have any doubts about the FFXIV writing team not knowing about such concepts, all you have to do is look at the last MSQ dungeon which does have The Tree of Life during the final boss in that dungeon. Or you can look at Gridania and its connection to nature, particularly trees.

[Remedi]

Why do you say that?

because voidsents are rather fond of corpses to use

[Elysidelphi]

because voidsents are rather fond of corpses to use

Ah yes, I keep reading about such theories in regards to Zenos and his voidsent.

[HappyHubris]

The only thing that could redeem Zenos or make him sympathetic would be the writers directly apologizing for ressurecting him, building him up, and then doing literally nothing with the character.

The best version of Zenos was the one who died once and for all on that palace roof. I was beyond annoyed when he anticlimactically showed up at the end of EW's nuanced showdown to shout COME FITE ME BRO CHECK OUT MY GAINS.