The Bizarre Lack of Development and Pathos Concerning Zenos [6.0 Spoilers]

[Kesey]

Zenos should have stayed dead after his suicide in 4.0's ending. Since that scene he has done nothing to move the plot forward.

His character hasn't changed or developed either. Seriously, his big moment of significant change was the realization that the WOL won't fight him until this other threat has gone away. That's childish logic, not character development.

Post-Stormblood keep everything the same. Just delete scenes where Zenos is in another corpse.

Shadowbringers, Gaius should have killed Varis for knowningly courting Ascians. Estinien should have driven Elidibus from Zenos' corpse. The civil war still happens. Fandaniel takes Varis' body and the plot continues (remember they can make clones!).

Endwalker happens without Zenos entirely and we'd be none the wiser. Such an easy fix that you can't even love him into justification.

Not to mention all the lost plot threads, like the dreaming of Amaurot (So Ancient Zenos wasn't friends with Azem?), how does surviving death change you (because in this case it did nothing), and he just rolls with Fandaniel using him as a tool proving he has no self-worth (so why even fight the WOL at all if the Ascian is going to make you a puppet?)?

Zenos is a blemish on what was otherwise a well told story and expansion.

[HyoMinPark]

I think that's a lovely way to interpret the narrative we've been given, but I don't think it was either the intention or the most effective approach to telling his story. Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

FF14 may have a very sophisticated narrative & it may leave a lot up to our interpretation, but it is still ultimately quite accessible; the failure to give players any significant opportunities to empathize with Zenos & understand where he's coming from is to its detriment. Likewise, as OP said, it feels incongruous with the story's overally themes of empathy & compassion, even for people like Yotsuyu or Hermes or Amon; why is Zenos outside of this?

On the bolded part: we don’t necessarily have to empathize, sympathize, or feel compassion for each and every villain we encounter. And there are those within the story that we don’t have these emotions for; some play a bigger part than others, but you could say the same about those we do share an emotional connection to.

Our character is never really seen feeling any sort of emotion for the other Ascians outside of Emet and Elidibus: Lahabrea, Igeyorhm, Nabriales. They’re seen more as obstacles to our goals, we overcome them, and they fade into finished chapters of our story. Some weren’t as major to the story compared to the former two, yes—Igeyorhm and Nabriales, for example, didn’t have a lot of screen time or development, and Lahabrea’s development in ARR and HW was quite poor, to be honest; however, Elidibus was only really a major player in a handful of expansion patches, and 5.3 was a major turning point for his character after years of kind of being in the background as an emissary. Now whether this was a product of ARR storytelling in the case of Nabriales or missed opportunity for Igeyorhm, I cannot say. But we didn’t really follow the themes of the story with either of them. Lahabrea is, obviously, subject to change given Pandaemonium’s on-going story.

Though it’s been a while since I’ve been through HW, I don’t recall us ever really feeling compassion for Nidhogg, though this could be up for debate. I personally don’t recall any moments akin to what we had with Yotsuyu, Hermès/Fandaniel/Amon, Emet-Selch, Elidibus, or Meteion with him; he always struck me as just a villain driven by a singular emotion and goal; not one that was inherently complex, or meant to garner any sort of emotional sympathy or compassion from us, the player. Same for Thordan. For Stormblood, I don’t think there was any question that Asahi is a person not meant to garner sympathy or compassion or understanding of any kind—I think he was purposely written to be that guy with the punchable face that you just want to sock in the jaw every time he opens his mouth. Again, you can argue that he wasn’t a “major” antagonist; but still.

I think there exist characters not meant to be empathized/sympathized with, or feel compassion for should the player choose not to. And that’s perfectly okay. Just like it’s okay to not have redeemable characters in a story. Not every villain needs to be tragic or sympathetic or an anti-villain. That would be boring.



Zenos is a very divisive character—and has been since 4.0. I think it’s probably a wise decision to leave it up to the players to decide on their emotional catharsis/pathos for him rather than trying to force it.

Even though he spends relatively little time on-screen in SB, everything that we do is to fulfill his ends; we spend more time dealing with Yotsuyu & Fordola because the entire point of the expansion is that we have nothing to offer him until after we've grown strong enough to overcome all of the obstacles he sets in our path. After all, what are Yotsuyu & Fordola doing but carrying out his will?

As for post-SB--in post-SHB, as OP said, we spent a lot of time emphasizing how important he was going to be in EW; in the promotional materials for EW, he was also heavily emphasized, suggesting that he would be important; he is also present at the lvl 90 trial, & the absolute final fight of the expac is with him. I think this is enough to say that he is--or was meant to be--a significant antagonist. Why he ended up not fulfilling that role is impossible to know, but that doesn't invalidate OP's question about why he wasn't offered the same compassion & empathy that other antagonists receive

I answered before this had been posted, but I’ll reiterate: with him being such a divisive character, I think it was wise of the writers to leave it up to the player to form their own emotional connection (or lack there of) with him. Forcing it would have been in bad taste, in my opinion. I don’t think that would have made for great writing when the reaction to him since his introduction—and subsequent resurrection—has been so divided.

[Anonymoose]

Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

My brain pretty much considers him the optional DLC mega-boss of FFXIV so tbh yeah it's fair to say I'm not invested in him, lol. But he didn't do any of the things I was afraid he would do to damage Endwalker's messages, and he did technically meet his own goals without ruining mine, so I'm willing to sit here and be like "<blowing into bubble pipe> Would Zenos care if I understood or invested in him? I submit that he would not."

[dynus]

Short answer: the writers didn't want to. They explicitly said their goal with him in Stormblood was to make a villain who wasn't as charismatic as Gaius, and certainly not as sympathetic as Emet-Selch turned out to be. And unlike Yotsuyu, whatever, probably not great childhood he had, wasn't a driving force in his desires. He didn't dwell on the fact his father hated him, that everyone except Asahi thought he was a monster.

He simply did not care. That's what the writers wanted him to be. They wanted a character you loved to hate. They missed the mark, but that was the intent.

[Elysidelphi]

Thank you so much for your kind words! <3 I’d love a link to that discord!

Here you go:

https://discord.gg/SxGnhMJR


Hope the link works for you!

[vormela]

Well, I for one can't wait for Zenos to become the next Emet-Selch dividing everyone.

His existence said/says something about us. I dunno what it is just yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back. As if the sunset/sunrise imagery for the fight wasn't enough to suggest there is some kind of cosmic connection! They have been on this dueling-suns morning/evening star track for a while now in the story, the two who cannot coexist (Azim Steppe gods...although naamah (spelling?) was more lunar, I admit). I used to think he was the one Azem sans memories with only the uncontrollable urge to fight the biggest strong people.

That he managed to be less creepy to me than Fandaniel in the dinner scene is something that has stuck with me. Can't put a finger on it. They are both nihilists on the surface, but Zenos is something more. Even though he seems simpler. I don't think he is. ETA: and I am not talking about a tragic backstory. I mean just him as a being.

[Anonymoose]

Can't put a finger on it. They are both nihilists on the surface, but Zenos is something more.

Some friends and I were just debating what the "proper" term for Zenos is, and whether there's a meaningful difference between existentialism / active nihilism / optimistic nihilism. I personally landed on existentialist for Zenos, as "life has no worth but what you give it" but also "it's worth finding meaning in it"; that's what, for me, separated him from actual nihilists Xande / Amon ("life has no meaning but what you give it and it's not worth giving it any").

As we joked about it more, Venat was tongue-in-cheek pinned as "absurdist" (life has no meaning but what you give it, and it's a paradox to try to look for meaning that doesn't exist, and you should accept this, but also rebel against it by embracing what life has to offer). Though the lyrics to Answers are a cloud you can see any shape in so it comes as no surprise to me you can use it to defend the absurdist worldview, lmao.

[vormela]

Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him.

Yes. His purpose is for something more than surficial villain. There are more pathologies tied up in the dinner scene and fallout than in the entire rest of the game except for Venat asking us if our existence was good. It will take time to figure out, but I am going to give him that time.

[vormela]

Some friends and I were just debating what the "proper" term for Zenos is, and whether there's a meaningful difference between existentialism / active nihilism / optimistic nihilism. I personally landed on existentialist for Zenos, as "life has no worth but what you give it" but also "it's worth finding meaning in it"; that's what, for me, separated him from actual nihilists Xande / Amon ("life has no meaning but what you give it and it's not worth giving it any").

As we joked about it more, Venat was tongue-in-cheek pinned as "absurdist" (life has no meaning but what you give it, and it's a paradox to try to look for meaning that doesn't exist, and you should accept this, but also rebel against it by embracing what life has to offer). Though the lyrics to Answers are a cloud you can see any shape in so it comes as no surprise to me you can use it to defend the absurdist worldview, lmao.

We posted this at the same time and are basically saying the same thing. XD
Is life good? Well then.

[Delily]

We were in a place surrounded by the power of Dynamis, if Thancred can make breathable air in an entire zone, we can create a single platform and we could've done it by drawing on our entire memories from 1.0/2.0 (depending when you started) to present of our journey.

Zenos is a glorified platform that we ourselves could've made if we willed it if the writers had let us but they didn't so Zenos the platform is the result.

Zenos in 6.0 was a superfluous addition that served no narrative purpose other than to give a final fight that didn't even need to exist but did.

Everything he has done since being brought back could've been done by Fandaniel and the plot would be the same.

That has been my issue with Zenos since 4.0, he has been narratively useless and a terrible stain on the writing team for not leaving well enough alone when they should have.

Thancred and the others were able to do this by sacrificing their bodies to overcome the emotions. Who exactly did we need to interact with to create a path to the Endsinger? Especially one that moves because she can just fly away from anything we do.

As for Zenos himself, Hermes stated something to the effect of since there is no inherent meaning in life we much make meaning, even if that meaning is to become a genocidal maniac. That’s Zenos. He doesn’t need a redemption arc. He unapologetically had a single goal, and he took it upon himself to achieve that goal. The man is positive nihilism personified. He knew what he wanted, he didn’t care about what others thought, and he was willing to do what it took to get his desire.