Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[Cleretic]

One thought occurred to me about depression

As powerful as our Ancient selves seem to be as a people they are ill equipped to handle depression. Hermes obviously had it, and people both around him and audience wise are quick to tell the dude to go away.

Not something I entirely agree with, but still a bit of a point of discussion.

I don't think we can really say that Hermes 'obviously had depression', our only real evidence is that he's introspective and thinks about darker stuff than usual (frankly I'm more inclined to give that armchair diagnosis to Emet-Selch). But... honestly, if it were true, yeah, Amaurot would be a god-awful place at understanding that. It's a very conformist society, and for all its supposed wisdom, also a very ignorant one. Completely willing to stick their heads in the sand rather than consider a fault with their society or an alternative viewpoint. They'd suck REAL BAD at mental health issues!

[Alleo]

I read someones post about a certain topic on reddit and I know wonder the same:

Is the story with the time travel even possible? In Shadowbringer our original future would have been that we die thanks to Black Rose. The calamity happens, the first is destroyed and 200 years later Graha awakes to change this.

Until the point that the scions and we are taken to the first everything should have happened the same way. Yet how does Hydaelyn and her plan exist if we died in the bad future? We would have no chance to tell Venat everything we knew at that time. Yet the loop was already in existence at that period of time.

IMO it would have made much more sense that because we are now alive and able to travel in the past that we do change their future.

Also wasnt it said that the sound came from within the earth? Yet Meteion was in space.

[Cleretic]

I read someones post about a certain topic on reddit and I know wonder the same:

This is... honestly, kind of an overcomplication of things, I think.

I don't think we actually impacted Venat's plan overmuch. Ultimately, she was always going to stand up and become Hydaelyn, shackle Zodiark, cram him in the moon, and make the thing resemble an escape plan. And that's because, even if we weren't there, she still would have met with Emet, Hythlodaeus, and Hermes; she still would have been witness to Meteion's breakdown, learned about dynamis through that lens, and escaped Ktitsis with her memories intact and something resembling a plan. We might've helped her refine it a bit, but ultimately nothing Venat does because of our interference is out of character for her normally. It probably just would've taken her longer to get there.

Or alternatively: like in Alexander's story, it's a time loop that contains another time loop. G'raha was always going to survive the Calamity and then travel back to save the First, because an even bigger time loop requires this to have already happened. The Elpis time loop essentially creates the First time loop.

I mean, it's one of those two or it's 'we're not supposed to ask that many questions about time travel in this game, so don't worry about it'.

[Bhearil]

I read someones post about a certain topic on reddit and I know wonder the same:

Is the story with the time travel even possible? In Shadowbringer our original future would have been that we die thanks to Black Rose. The calamity happens, the first is destroyed and 200 years later Graha awakes to change this.

Until the point that the scions and we are taken to the first everything should have happened the same way. Yet how does Hydaelyn and her plan exist if we died in the bad future? We would have no chance to tell Venat everything we knew at that time. Yet the loop was already in existence at that period of time.

IMO it would have made much more sense that because we are now alive and able to travel in the past that we do change their future.

Also wasnt it said that the sound came from within the earth? Yet Meteion was in space.

Ill try to answer this the best I can:

This is the basic premise of how time travel would work, according to Albert Einstein. Simply put, even if it were possible to travel back in time, you would not be able to change any events in the past, because your future self would have already caused them to happen in the way that they did. No matter your intentions, everything that you did would only fulfill the past. The only thing that would change is your perception of the events.
Meanwhile Graha Tia's crew didnt simply traveled to the past but knowing how time travel works they managed to open a conection to a paralel world where a Graha Tia came from another future. Thats the reason why the Bad Future will never get to pass due to Graha Tias's interference in our world even if in future Graha Tia's world happened and WILL happen no matter what even if they traveled to their past, thats why old Cid and Nero mention that even if their successors manage to complete their project, they are doomed anyways because nothing will change and will only manage to save "another" world.

On one we just travel to the past, on the other Graha traveled to a paralel universe, but missed the point they wanted to reach in the time axis arriving a century too early

[QT_Melon]

Not something I entirely agree with, but still a bit of a point of discussion.

I don't think we can really say that Hermes 'obviously had depression', our only real evidence is that he's introspective and thinks about darker stuff than usual (frankly I'm more inclined to give that armchair diagnosis to Emet-Selch). But... honestly, if it were true, yeah, Amaurot would be a god-awful place at understanding that. It's a very conformist society, and for all its supposed wisdom, also a very ignorant one. Completely willing to stick their heads in the sand rather than consider a fault with their society or an alternative viewpoint. They'd suck REAL BAD at mental health issues!

About depression

Thinking about "darker stuff than usual" is not depression itself. It's how you cope as well. There is also a difference between grieving which comes in stages that you may wish to join others in death due to loss. It's just part of the grief process, however Hermes/Fandaniel/Amon has terrible coping mechanisms. Much of what could have been resolved in talking more to people about possible loss and seeking out company with peers - was more alienation..and seemed moreso in his first life. His life as Amon also had that self destructive behavior as well

[PangTong]

Spoiler stuff below. About everything I guess

I didn't dig the time travel stuff at all. I thought everything that happened in Shadowbringers had already established that going back in time can't be used to affect the present. I guess Alexander shows that "closed loop" time travel works, but I still feel as though it creates a lot of plot inconsistencies. What other current events are a result of time travel plots yet to come? Did Hydaelyn know everything all along and just decide not to tell us? Or was it that "timeline convergence" that apparently only completed when we met face to face? Convenient. It just seems like lazy writing; a way for us to quickly learn Meteion's location by having Hydaelyn suddenly remember by a quirk of fate.

There's a few other criticisms I have with the MSQ with regards to writing (mostly with regards to pacing and several parts which felt contrived), but from a lore and internal consistency perspective there's a few other things that have been bothering me.

• It felt SO DUMB that the Thavnairians worked so hard and devoted so much of their expertise and resources to successfully creating an anti-tempering talisman, and then we learn a short time later that the Garleans created one by accident, without even realizing. They couldn't have come up with a better reason for untempered Garleans to be in Garlemald?
  
• When you arrive in Mare Lamentorum the Watcher says he has managed to repair one of the 5 destroyed brands, meaning there should be two still functioning. Yet when Zenos arrives he destroys a single brand which breaks the seal on Zodiark. What happened to the repaired one?
  
• Venat says her magic that she senses on us is a "traveler's ward" that prevents our aether from being corrupted (i.e. tempering), but it's the Echo that prevents tempering, not the Blessing of Light. It's already been long established that the Echo is not Hydaelyn's thing. I guess it's possible that the Blessing of Light also prevents tempering, but since the Echo seems to be somewhat of a prerequisite, it's kind of redudant, is it not? The point of the Blessing of Light seems to be protection against Darkness and the ability to absorb and wield Light to enhance one's own abilities.
  
• The reveal that the Ascians "programmed" tempering into modern-day summoning rituals as a means of perpetuating them, and that "original" summoning (creation magic) has no such downside. So then what was all that stuff Emet spouted about the Convocation being tempered by Zodiark? With the reveal also that Venat is not simply Hydaelyn's "heart" but one and the same being, for this to make sense it would have to mean that either Elidibus voluntarily tempered his brethren, or the Convocation somehow imbued Zodiark with the uncontrollable ability to temper, or that Emet-Selch was simply lying about being tempered all along.

I'm not looking for some theory that explains this stuff, because anyone can fill in holes with their imagination. These are things which I think the story should have addressed or handled differently but didn't, at least as far as I could tell. Some of them feel like actual mistakes.

I'm also left with the question of what exactly IS the Echo in the end? I know it's some kind of awakening of a sundered soul, but why does it prevent tempering, why does it allow communion with Hydaelyn, understanding of all languages and persistence of the soul after death? Is the implication that these are simply all traits that the ancients had, and the Echo grants them to modern day mortals? But then, the interaction with Meteion also implies that the ability to understand any language is in fact caused by dynamis and she can do it with us because our lower concentration of aether allows us to sense emotions/intent via dynamis. Shouldn't that mean that all present-day mortals are capable of this? Why is it only people with the Echo like us and Krile then?

[Lyth]

Also wasnt it said that the sound came from within the earth? Yet Meteion was in space.

Oh, the sights we shall see, the sights we shall see...

Perhaps there is another reason why we were sent back to that very specific point in time? To serve as someone's guiding star?

[JeanneOrnitier]

A thought about the final trial

Do you think the WoL became a Primal at the end? The Scions were praying and sending their hopes, with their poses even being deliberate callbacks to the cinematic where Louisoix became Phoenix

[Bright-Flower]

A thought about the final trial

Do you think the WoL became a Primal at the end? The Scions were praying and sending their hopes, with their poses even being deliberate callbacks to the cinematic where Louisoix became Phoenix

I don't think so.

I think if anything their prayers just activated via dynamus to shield you. Primals are made with aether afterall, considering where everyone was I think their hope for the WOL's safety activating dynamus makes more sense than the WOL becoming a primal.

[Hayden]

Anyone else really pleased with how they inclused the beastmen and the Primals in Endwalker? That just left a warm and fuzzy feeling. I love that they threw that redemption out there, any for anyone who has completed the Melee DPS role quest, how certian characters have changed since early game. It really felt good, as I never liked how Eorzea treated the Beastmen.