"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

[Krotoan]

And here we are.. again.

"This community is great/friendly/betterthanXXXXX"
"No,This community is horrible because I had a bad experience!"
"Yeah, This "great" community did these horrible things!"

We did this back in the "GCBTW" threads.


All game communities draw from the same pool of gamers who run the gamut from saintly to sadistic. FFXIV has rules in place that are enforced pretty regularly (but not perfectly) to curb a lot of the surface toxicity. People think a couple seconds more about saying things because there's a chance someone may report you and you'll actually face consequences for that offhand comment you made without thinking... sometimes.
All communities have fanatics. People who make a thing their life and personality and vehemently defend against any criticism. I have found them in every single community and yes, they are just as bad as the ones you think are worse. FFXIV is no exception.

The game itself also isn't structured mainly around competition so people are more likely to help than actively crush others progress because it doesn't hurt their progress... most times. That's all it is. The game tends to give a better impression because of how it's designed, what it incentivizes and how it's rules are enforced. It's not that the players themselves are any better behaved in the end.

[Caurcas]

The best game "community" is to have no game community. Don't tie yourself to such a broad and diverse group of people. We exist within smaller groups.of fellows and friends, and this is where it should stay. GCBTW is what happens when you push broad community, a terrifying accurate caricature of how other see people who constantly talk about 14.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What happened in the cases of scottzone and lazypeon was not toxic casualism.

It was toxic fanaticism, or tribalism as some content creators are now referring to it. It was people who are so rabidly obsessed with something that they can't accept negative feedback. There was nothing casual about their responses at all.

I wasn’t saying it was toxic casualism. I was giving two separate examples of the toxicity rampant in 14.

[Dewslam]

if I risk an infraction because I'm telling player A that their refusal to do mechanic X is making it impossible to progress, then yes, the community is coddled

but hey, it's easy to say this from a high horse, only an 'undesirable' can have this opinion, right? only someone that behaves like that could have that opinion, right?
that I've never insulted, harassed or abused a single other player (other than myself) in the entire time I've been playing will fall on deaf ears or you'll accuse me of lying, I bet

guess I'm just a miserable git like the other poster implied, that's the only reason I could have this opinion, after all!

lmao get a load of this persecution complex. It's easy to navigate social interactions without breaking the rules or insulting people; if you're incapable of that, that's on you. Maybe spend less time fantasizing about what a poor, ostracized, woebegone soul you are and actually look at your own behavior for like three seconds. No one is obliged to entertain your "negative opinions" at any point, and if you can't uphold the social contract of decorum a community wants - then you're not a good fit for that community. Some places revel in negativity, some places don't. Even 4chan has standards, as low a bar as they are.

[LittleImp]

lmao get a load of this persecution complex. It's easy to navigate social interactions without breaking the rules or insulting people; if you're incapable of that, that's on you. Maybe spend less time fantasizing about what a poor, ostracized, woebegone soul you are and actually look at your own behavior for like three seconds. No one is obliged to entertain your "negative opinions" at any point, and if you can't uphold the social contract of decorum a community wants - then you're not a good fit for that community. Some places revel in negativity, some places don't. Even 4chan has standards, as low a bar as they are.

"It's easy not to insult people, let me demonstrate by insulting you repeatedly."

I've never seen someone undermine the point of their own post so rapidly, thanks for the amusing read.

[Dewslam]

"It's easy not to insult people, let me demonstrate by insulting you repeatedly."

I've never seen someone undermine the point of their own post so rapidly, thanks for the amusing read.

You're welcome. It is easy not to insult people though - there's always something to be said about personal choice in the matter, responsibility for one's own words and all that. I stand by what I've said in both posts! Truly, I am the great duality of man.

But to address it more directly - and more seriously - when it comes to giving advice or help in game, I might just be lucky but I've never had anyone take issue with pointing out that they've missed a mechanic or strategy that caused a wipe. But at the same time I don't usually call out people or make them feel singled out over it if I can help it; if just to avoid making things awkward. I've always found that directly stating who caused the wipe and why tends to just make people defensive while a more vague "Whoops - so heads up everyone: when you've got the debuff over your head, attack the boss that's the opposite colour of it!" usually goes over better. People tend to be hesitant to be the first to admit they either don't know or forgot how a fight goes when they're in a group of people they don't know. As a whole I'd like to think people respond better to positive reinforcement than negative, but I'm no behavioral scientist.

[linayar]

that's... normal? what does that have to do with my point, I must ask, again?
to reiterate it; the community in the main sub (and basically the game itself) is actively suppressing dissenting voices and different opinions, even different experiences, painting those that don't fit into the hivemind and expectations as bad actors, as trolls, as people that have brought it upon themselves, and for what?
so that they can call themselves a nice and friendly community, just ignore all the toxicity that happens against people deemed 'bad', it's fine to be toxic against those because they deserve it, right? happens over and over again on reddit, happens over and over again on the forums here, even (along with crying that the OF is so bad because it isn't coddling people), but hey!

just talk about those toxic experiences you've had on your mainsub! your post about your tank griefing you for no reason will surely not be filled with people that tell you you deserved it, your endgame healer that you asked nicely to use something other than cure 1 and please do dps? people will surely be on your side and not tell you to mind your own business! doesn't matter that the 15 minute dungeon took 40 minutes because of them, you should've just left lol!
crafting mentor giving out bad advice in NN and you want to make a vent post about getting kicked by them and their clique after you corrected them? deleted, only positivity allowed, you were naming and shaming and inviting harassment, even if you weren't

Why would you expect for people to be on your side? If they're not, then so what?

That said, I took a look at the rules for the main sub, and it doesn't allow you to vent about duty finder/pug experiences. So at least that's one excuse, which is unfortunate, as it just collects the people who would vent under another sub.

I can think of a historic label or two.. or a dozen, used to identify people, that will get you in trouble if you use them (with good reason), while being considered 'normal' back in the day.

Well, we can't change history, nor should we. We can can only deal with the present. And as someone who is living in the present, calling someone a WoW player is a neutral label, while calling someone a WoW refugee is a hit on WoW, not the refugee. Of course, this is assuming that they are WoW players/refugees.

[Kozh]

My favorite posts in this thread are the ones where people complain that this game's community is to soft, coddled or toxic because it doesn't welcome their posts insulting, harassing, or abusing other members of the community; usually with the unsubtle implication that it's only wrong because the community isn't coddling them, personally.

The most strawman argument I've ever seen. "let me paint the other side as evil as possible. I win yay!"

Overall there is a rather wide difference between conversations held here (And other community boards) verses those held in game - to the point where I feel more like the forums, and by proxy those that flock to them, are the misrepresentation.

If anything, I feel like in game conversations are slightly more misrepresentation than outside of game. With the exception of arguing and kicking during duty, people very rarely talk or having debate about things we're discussing right now. Instead people will vent their experiences, positive or negative, in ffxiv platforms (reddit, Twitter, forum, etc) because the rule is less strict.

[Rinhi]

lmao get a load of this persecution complex. It's easy to navigate social interactions without breaking the rules or insulting people; if you're incapable of that, that's on you. Maybe spend less time fantasizing about what a poor, ostracized, woebegone soul you are and actually look at your own behavior for like three seconds. No one is obliged to entertain your "negative opinions" at any point, and if you can't uphold the social contract of decorum a community wants - then you're not a good fit for that community. Some places revel in negativity, some places don't. Even 4chan has standards, as low a bar as they are.

so you didn't even read my post? let me quote myself,

that I've never insulted, harassed or abused a single other player (other than myself) in the entire time I've been playing will fall on deaf ears

not to mention that you're completely shifting goalposts about not being allowed to insult people for whatever reason, just like so many people before you because that's your go-to deflection
thanks for proving your own point wrong, by the way

I won't quote your second post, but... that's exactly what I do, too! can you believe that?! positive reinforcements and suggestions are of course better than negative ones and 'forcing' someone to do something, but that was never my argument in any way, either

Why would you expect for people to be on your side? If they're not, then so what?

what? I'm not expecting anyone to be on my side, where did I say that? I'm just giving you examples of what happens or happened, which all but serves to...

That said, I took a look at the rules for the main sub, and it doesn't allow you to vent about duty finder/pug experiences. So at least that's one excuse, which is unfortunate, as it just collects the people who would vent under another sub.

... paint this community as a beacon of niceness, by pushing away those voices that would disagree or didn't have a good experience, like them

[Rinhi]

sorry for the doubleposts, but I didn't see this edit till now!

You don't. That's a strawman argument. Your poor social skills in relaying that message to the player in a manner of which that matches the minimum bar of common decency is what puts you at risk.(Not you personally, adapting the second case due to your use of first case in this hypothetical.) And rampant negativity would harm anyone's enjoyment. The message itself isn't a risk and most players are capable of relaying assistance and feedback on playstyles without issue. It's the outliers that get reported.

and yet that dry-cut example is directly used in the clarified TOS as an example that's not allowed anymore, that you can't directly tell someone that they're the one holding up progress, that they're the ones responsible for the wipes and lockouts
instead you're basically being told to just silently kick that person if your suggestions get ignored
I'm all for being nice*, but sometimes some people have to be told that they're the ones causing an issue, be it wipes or way too low DPS, to get better, to improve

*though I admit I might come across as crass, please forgive me

As far as these forums being an affect: It was the very same introspection I mentioned that lead to that conclusion, actually. It's not so much the difference of opinion but the bad faith arguments and overall negative tone which is such an incredibly stark contrast to those who are actually playing the game and enjoying themselves while doing so. (In the several friends groups I have this place is universally referred to as a cesspool. Anecdotal sure, but as I said, environments determine experiences.) Sure, the opinions differ, and tolerating them is a fair statement - to a degree. But there are limits and I know mine better.

I was just giving you a snarky response back due to it and I apologize for that, I guessed that said introspection or something like it was what made you use the forums less
however, I do disagree that the forum is overly negative, I just think people are more 'free' with their opinions compared to the game, which I guess can be a good and bad thing, but I personally find it good that it is like this
I don't think it's as much of a 'cesspool' as the likes of reddit, 4chan, twitter or certain discords, but I do understand why people could see it like that, even if I disagree

It may not be that you are a miserable git - but the arguments most commonly seen here? Defiantly depict misery. Whether that's someone just coming to air grievances so they don't in their own groups, or they feel like it's valid critique doesn't change the negative contribution to the environment - and I found myself better for only visiting these places in the rarer downtime moments. I'll reiterate this - you may benefit from taking time to figure out what's affecting you and how to alleviate that - rather than simply pointing the blame.
For me? It's taking these forums in shifts.

I think it's harsh opinions or, at least in the posters eyes :P, the honest truth that gets posted, rather than misery
I can just speak for myself, but despite my posts may making you think the players, community or forums affect my negatively, I can really just say that they don't, honestly
my opinion doesn't come from a place of negative emotion, I don't use reddit, twitter or 4chan not because they affect me, but rather that I simply just don't like the vibes there, all for various reasons, but I do think that absolving people of their personal responsibility in any way or form isn't good and that burying any non-friendly experience is in my eyes painting this community worse than it is*, hence my posts

*in the sense of: why hide something that happens in every community? this fake 'only niceness in this game' that lots of players subscribe to isn't what I'd call good, tbh