Dark Knight Megathread

[Crater]

This feels like continually shouting into the void but I still don't know why people are asking for stacks on Blood Weapon instead of asking for Blood Weapon to actually have a buff effect again. It doesn't do anything to warrant being a timer-based buff or a stack-based buff.

It doesn't enable the use of otherwise-unavailable skills.
It doesn't eliminate the cost of certain skills while under its effect.
It doesn't change the effect of any skills by forcing a critical hit or guaranteeing a proc, or any other mechanical change.
It doesn't interact with any non-GCD skills used under its duration.
It doesn't buff damage, or attack speed, or crit/DH rate.

Putting stacks on it just changes it from an incoherent, stupidly-designed skill that shouldn't exist and is slightly inconvenient, to an incoherent, stupidly-designed skill that shouldn't exist. If that's the bar people are setting for themselves then there's no wonder this job keeps going downhill with every update.

[Shin96]

If that's the bar people are setting for themselves then there's no wonder this job keeps going downhill with every update.

Not like people have been asking for simple fixes to Living Dead for example. They're just retardedly stubborn on this job to the detriment of anyone who enjoys it.

I personally would enjoy it if Blood Weapon gave us Haste back, enhancing the gameplay by attaching speed to our GCD's.

I could also make the same case for Dark Arts. Samurai uses Hissatsu: Kaiten to increase the potency on Weaponskills by 50%. I don't see what's difficult by giving back Dark Arts albeit easier or simpler with additional properties. It leads me to believe the developers have decided tanks are supposed to be casual while DPS takes on the mantle of difficulty. Thus Reaper. It's easy to see why they disregard feedback on DRK.

[MagiusNecros]

Just a note, we're not losing any Mana restoration with the new Delirium. The 200 MP per hit is there to compensate for the loss in MP we'd recieve from our usual 1-2-3 combo, which averages out at 200 MP per GCD.

Objectively wrong. Delirium being only 3 GCDs will make you lose 400 to 1000 MP since currently you can fit in 5 GCDS currently which would net you 1000 to 2500 MP. Now it will be 600 to 1500. May as well be a 20% loss.

There will likely be no MP scaling as it is now fixed at 10k forever.

The only burst MP restore you will have is pairing Delirium (5ShB/3EW GCDs) and Blood Weapon (4 GCDs) together.

Bloodspiller SHB = 3400 MP

Bloodspiller EW = 3000 MP

Quietus SHB = 4900 MP

Quietus EW = 3900 MP

For single target it wouldn't really matter but with Quietus it's huge overall loss when it comes to MP restore.

In a perfect world BW would fit 5 GCDS but even then the total in SHB would be 4000/5500 and the total in EW would be 3600/4500.

It's a big loss when it comes to Quietus. And a slight loss with Bloodspiller.

[Crater]

[...]

It's a fair point that SE seems to be stubborn and inattentive to DRK issues in general, but I still can't really follow the logic of asking for Blood Weapon to be a slightly more convenient version of a bad skill that shouldn't exist in its current form in the first place.

It's like if Living Dead were a skill you cast on a healer that gave them 2500 MP and an instant-cast Raise if you died... And instead of people asking for it to be turned into an invuln, they started asking for it to give the healer 3500 MP so they could raise you and heal you. It just doesn't make sense to me to make that kind of compromise with something that is clearly a design error. If SE isn't going to fix it despite the feedback, then they were never going to fix it anyway, but if they do actually listen to feedback for once, you might as well be asking for a good skill instead of a bad skill.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Objectively wrong. Delirium being only 3 GCDs will make you lose 400 to 1000 MP since currently you can fit in 5 GCDS currently which would net you 1000 to 2500 MP. Now it will be 600 to 1500. May as well be a 20% loss.

...You do realize that removing those 2 extra BS's in Delirium means you return to your main combo 2 GCDs early right?

SHB Delirium: BS x 5 = 1000MP, at 200MP per hit.
EW delirium: BS * 3 = 600MP, and then you fill in the remaining 2 GCDs with Hard Slash + Syphon, Syphon + SE, or SE + HS. Which in two of those combinations, gives you 600MP, or 1200MP total across the same 5 GCDs.

Delirium's 200mp per hit is purely to refund you the opportunity cost of using BS vs the mp loss of not using your main combo for the duration of Delirium, since the average mp per GCD is identical; you can't compare SHB's 5 GCDs & EW's 3 GCDs in a vacuum, you have to factor in what EW Delirium can fill the extra 2 GCDs with. The only *actual* fringe situation where EW delirium's MP gain would be worse is if you had the SE + HS combo, and the loss of the 400 MP from the 2x BS in SHB Delirium made you lose an edge during raid buffs. But if we're also highlighting fringe cases, if you have either of the Syphon setups, there is a fringe scenario where you'd gain an extra 200MP over SHB delirium in the same 5GCDs, which could theoretically land another edge during burst windows if you were just 200 MP short in the SHB scenario.

Quietus also isn't as big a loss as you think, since you can fit an unleash + stalwart in lieu of the 2 missing Quietus's:

SHB: Quietus * 5 = 2500 MP
EW: Quietus * 3 = 1500 MP + (0 + 500 (Unleash/Stalwart respectively)) = 2000 MP.

There's also the fact that there's unseen benefits to EW delirium in that you theoretically gain 20 Blood from SE & Stalwart more often since you return to your main combos earlier, which adds up to extra Blood generation over time compared to SHB.

[MagiusNecros]

...You do realize that removing those 2 extra BS's in Delirium means you return to your main combo 2 GCDs early right?

Yes and because of it you'll be forced to pair D + BW together for max MP return and must always use Unleash or Hard Slash before popping DBW for a total of 3600/4500 MP return across 4 GCDs.

Which I think the Quietus and SS combo is more beneficial as you get 4500 MP along with 50 Blood. If BW allowed for 5 GCDS you could always guarantee 50 Blood each DBW window. Therefore by being at 50 blood you can then guarantee you reach 100 and still retain 5 BS/Q.

Currently you are going to see 3600 MP and 60 Blood for ST and 4500 MP and 50 Blood for AoE. I would prefer BW having 5 GCDs rather then just 4 so you can acquire 60 blood on both ST or AoE. At the end of the day it is still overall a loss on MP restoration.

Although I feel the limitation on Quietus MP restore should be removed and it should proc for every single target hit. That alone would make MP return phenomenal and allow for a fast paced Quietus + Flood spam playstyle.

BS/Q don't break combos so there is a tiny amount of preplanning you'll have to do which is great because that is engaging to me.

I think going forward BSx3 > SoSi(2400 + 1200) and Qx3 > StSo(3300 + 1200) is the future for burst MP restores every 60 seconds. 50 blood every 60s window would be the dream. Which requires a BW change or stacking SkS to the point 5 gcds is consistent.

This is difficult however because you then have the problem of weaponskills and spells using two different stats. That's a problem given AoE is spells and ST is weaponskills. Feels bad man.

But I really have always loved the Dark Knight across the franchise so I'm rather conflicted if dropping the class is the answer at 75 or if I should cap it at 90 for AF gear and story and then shelf it for either GNB or just stick with Reaper as the core job I'll play.

Core issues on DRK right now is just going to be Living Dead, Blood Weapon, and an array of systems that actively work against each other. Don't need to work for Cid Garlond to figure that out.

Blood Price needs to come back, a skill similar to Sole Survivor needs to come back and Abyssal Drain needs to be changed to what it was. Along with the other 58.25 issues DRK overall has with it's kit to the point I feel being a hot mess is part of the class fantasy.

Edit: You can actually get 60 blood (40 + 20) on ST after 5 GCDs (on regular SE). 60 blood across 4 GCDs(30 + 30) for AoE. So as far as blood goes it evens out. I just bad at math.

[Kazamaiya]

I'm mostly just here to support the thread as it's currently the biggest thread in the english forums (recently at least).

I mained this job in Stormblood and seeing it slowly burn out over the slow burn that's been Shadowbringers has left me feeling very dulled out of the job, but i will still support that it gets the changes it rightfully deserves and needs.

(truth be told, i could make a whole rant about the job's shortcomings in my eyes, but a lot is just repeating what others have said before, so i will just provide my support for the most part unless told to share my thoughts on where the job stands)

[Undeadfire]

While I understand reworking Dark Knight, it is also a dangerous game to play reworks.

I always suggested Walking Dead should have at least a healing received increase 20-30% counteracting it's extreme drawback, Ast/Sch/Sge have to exert OGCDs keeping them alive. Each tank has their own invulnerable drawbacks while Warrior does not, specially EW Warrior.

TBN is the main focus issue when you suggest the reworks, this ability today is very powerful cheesing survival easy on demand short cooldown. I'm not the guy for a solution, but it feels very much like a Warrior clone with more buttons.

[OdinelStarrei]

Yes and because of it you'll be forced to pair D + BW together for max MP return and must always use Unleash or Hard Slash before popping DBW for a total of 3600/4500 MP return across 4 GCDs.

Which I think the Quietus and SS combo is more beneficial as you get 4500 MP along with 50 Blood. If BW allowed for 5 GCDS you could always guarantee 50 Blood each DBW window. Therefore by being at 50 blood you can then guarantee you reach 100 and still retain 5 BS/Q.

Currently you are going to see 3600 MP and 60 Blood for ST and 4500 MP and 50 Blood for AoE. I would prefer BW having 5 GCDs rather then just 4 so you can acquire 60 blood on both ST or AoE. At the end of the day it is still overall a loss on MP restoration.

Although I feel the limitation on Quietus MP restore should be removed and it should proc for every single target hit. That alone would make MP return phenomenal and allow for a fast paced Quietus + Flood spam playstyle.

BS/Q don't break combos so there is a tiny amount of preplanning you'll have to do which is great because that is engaging to me.

I think going forward BSx3 > SoSi(2400 + 1200) and Qx3 > StSo(3300 + 1200) is the future for burst MP restores every 60 seconds. 50 blood every 60s window would be the dream. Which requires a BW change or stacking SkS to the point 5 gcds is consistent.

This is difficult however because you then have the problem of weaponskills and spells using two different stats. That's a problem given AoE is spells and ST is weaponskills. Feels bad man.

But I really have always loved the Dark Knight across the franchise so I'm rather conflicted if dropping the class is the answer at 75 or if I should cap it at 90 for AF gear and story and then shelf it for either GNB or just stick with Reaper as the core job I'll play.

Core issues on DRK right now is just going to be Living Dead, Blood Weapon, and an array of systems that actively work against each other. Don't need to work for Cid Garlond to figure that out.

Blood Price needs to come back, a skill similar to Sole Survivor needs to come back and Abyssal Drain needs to be changed to what it was. Along with the other 58.25 issues DRK overall has with it's kit to the point I feel being a hot mess is part of the class fantasy.

Edit: You can actually get 60 blood (40 + 20) on ST after 5 GCDs (on regular SE). 60 blood across 4 GCDs(30 + 30) for AoE. So as far as blood goes it evens out. I just bad at math.

I don't understand. Delirium and Blood Weapon are two entirely different systems, one does not actively influence the other, even if they actively influence the same resource. At the end of the day, you're going to generate ~12K a minute like you do now. If anything this version of Delirium is a noticeable buff from the current implementation, because it can be used -15 seconds pre-pull or in between dungeon pulls to potentially gain usages depending on killtimes. This is the logic behind pre-pull Delirium and delayed BWs after the opener, they aren't linked together, Blood Weapon is an acquisition tool, Delirium is a soft-burst with a small compensation cost for the GCDs it requires. Getting a lot of MP quickly doesn't really do anything if it's into overcap or it's damage used outside of raid buffs.

Nothing about the changes that we currently know about really change the MP economy at all. You're still looking at 4 edges per minute or a 5/3 split using Dark Arts. After doing a sample rotation with the changes, I'm doing the exact same rotations I'm doing now, just with the addition of the new stuff at 90s/2mins and Delirium Bloodspillers, which if anything, make it easier to play with at 9K+ MP with small 200 gains vs one big 600 gain as I wait for Trick Attack.

Also Blood Weapon is 5 GCDs, ideally. You CAN get 5 GCDs in Blood Weapon during AoE, but only if you use three weapon skills, two spells and full blood. (ie: Unleash > BW > Quietus > Quietus > Stalwart Soul > Quietus > Unleash) A concession only made because of the aforementioned SkS/SpS split on the skills. The annoyance of doing this is why the stack change is such a popular suggestion.

DRK systems do not work against each other, they just lack synergy and work mostly independently. Offensively, It's only Blood Weapon that is actively punishing DRKs for no reason and gimping the job. The only thing that the job feeds into itself with is Dark Arts procs into buff window Edge of Shadows and regrettably, Darkside. Everything else is entirely disjointed (Abyssal, Shadowbringer, Oblation) and/or "press button, receive damage" (Living Shadow, Shadowbringer, Bloodspiller/Delirium). I actually think this is to DRKs benefit, because it makes the bursts pretty flexible by having comparatively few prerequisites outside of MP for Edge. Everything else is there to mash.

You cannot re-introduce Blood Price. The only reason the TBN refund is allowed is because it's a DPS gain only in aDPS-leaning raid compositions and proper play. If you outright gave DRKs more MP through Blood Price, it incentivizes DRKs being the MT for more damage through more Edges. That's antithetical to tank design over the last four years. If you could give Blood Price to someone else as well, maybe as an Oblation secondary effect, that might change things, but then you are once again, tying defensive actions to offensives actions in a linear, 1-to-1 fashion, which leads to super degenerate playstyles, something SE, again, have tried to pull back on.

Sole Survivor can come back, but ONLY the HP portion of it. The MP portion would directly gain a few uses of Edge of Shadow, DPS gain, so either that part of it needs to be removed to preserve the fixed MP economy or Edge of Shadow potency needs to be nerfed. Nerfing Edge of Shadow would be bad, because it would mean you use it slightly more outside of the 60s bursts to compensate for the increased MP, making Darkside even more of a useless mechanic due to mandatory usages to prevent MP overcap, and make the discrepancy between Edges inside of raid buffs and outside of raid buffs less wide from a lower base potency. This is a pretty minor point, granted.

I do not think Abyssal Drain can return to a standalone GCD for similar reasons. You'd be using the GCDs on only HP recovery, messing with the MP regeneration again, which means less TBNs in bigger pulls for the sake of HP gain, or in single target, another unused button. This is, in general, full of unnecessary trade offs. It'd be better as either being put on a stack system much like Onslaught with three charges, or a third step AoE combo after Stalwart Soul. Or if I'm gonna mash it every minute, just jack up the heal potency part and let me have a dedicated full heal in huge pulls, and at least a SE level heal in single target once a minute. I mean, Equilibrium is still in the game after all.

And you absolutely cannot allow Quietus MP restore to proc on every hit. The only reason it was okay for Quietus to do that in SB is because nothing in the DRK AoE kit back then was super powerful in AoE, with the small exception of DADark Passenger due to it not having a GCD opportunity cost, balanced by a long cooldown. It gave you infinite sustain, which is why they removed it. If you re-introduced it now, it would scale far too fast in huge pulls, to the point of where you'd generate significantly more MP AND damage throwing out Floods with a potency gain over Edge at 2 targets, would catapult DRK burst DPS way higher than other tanks, when we're already on the top of the ladder in that area. Floods, Living Shadow, and in the future, ShB do way too much damage to allow something this unrestricted, and Flood needs to remain strong to keep being a gain during 2 target. Unleash > Stalwart and Floods as they currently are already pretty much put DRK as a lock in situations where multi-target is preferable over single because of objective Blood/MP gains and a higher overall potency per second.

The #1 intent of the ShB rework was to reduce MP gain, because in SB it was out of control. Anything being added to the kit that adds MP with no extra conditional spenders would be them backtracking on this design. (And some parts of it should be backtracked, to be fair)

I no longer think a total rework is the right play. I just think the things that make DRK unique like stock piling and defensive kit flexibility should be emphasized more, because the prevailing narrative of "WAR clone" is way too widespread right now.

And if you're unsure about playing it, honestly, shelf it. There's too many problems to whole-heartedly support the EW version. Save yourself the trouble.

[Comrade_uri]

Posting to show support as something needs to be done and what they put up in the media tour was… well bit early for aprils fools isn’t it?