White-mage is doomed - and why

[GrimGale]

I miss MP management as a thing. I was kinda disappointed when they fixed AST's MP issues. MP no longer feels like a resource because it's so easy to keep up and as an AST, I don't even need Lucid Dreaming because I have tools with a dual purpose that grant me MP, the same with SCH.

We have Healing spells with high MP cost like Cure III, Succor and such. It would be nice to have Damaging spells with high MP cost and high Damage (Plus your basic ones that are much cheaper and efficient). I think chosing between dealing high damage at High MP cost and Healing is a great Risk/Reward way of giving Healers a bit more tactical thought.

[Sunako]

WHM doesnt even a lot to make up for the thin air nerf. A simple buff to assize to make it give 1000 mp instead of 500 would bring it more in line with the other healers

... except ast. astrodyne mp regen needs to be nerfed because 3k mp a minute is just busted

Another solution would be make lily have 115 potency attack. That would make it dps neutral after Misery.

[Shurrikhan]

Another solution would be make lily have 115 potency attack. That would make it dps neutral after Misery.

A 115 potency attack consumer for Lily would sacrifice 185 potency per gcd relative to Glare (38% efficiency), versus Misery's 900 potency over 4 GCDs, relative to Glare's 1200 (75% efficiency, or ultimately 100 potency wasted per GCD thus spent on a Lily skill -- or 75 each if including Misery itself)...

If we want truly no potency penalty for Misery, you just... increase it to the potency of as many GCDs of Glare (1200). I don't think we quite need that, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to our cool/iconic/signature nuke being stronger (and thereby nearer to dps-neutral).

Ultimately, though, the make-or-break matter for Misery is simply whether we have something to cleave. It's a Glare-and-a-half more dps over a fight per enemy thereby cleaved (minus the opportunity cost of one Holy). At two targets, that's a balance aid. By three targets, it can be a significant feature. (Frankly, if we had the likes of an O3S add phase again, it could put WHM heads and shoulders above SCH, especially.)

115 potency lily would be 115 x 3 = 345 potency + 900 misery = 1245 potency

Ah, sorry. I had forgotten about the 10-potency bump to Glare come Endwalker and mistakenly assumed that the direct DPS option would not ready the Blood Lily. (Most ideas regarding Lily offensive casts have been to offer direct damage as an alternative to banking towards Misery.)

I worry even then, though, that unless healing truly stays as pitiful in its requirements as now such still wouldn't be dps-neutral, as you could easily thereby end up having to spend two further GCDs, at least once per 90 seconds, on healing, due to the 2100 or 900n healing potency lost for the mere 345 offensive potency.

Moreover, it's an extra button that siphons away from your iconic nuke and healing-to-damage feedback loop. Is that really worth it -- especially as compared to just... buffing Misery, or even just turning Misery into a (perhaps faintly lower potency) oGCD that can be spent at variable counts of lilies readied (e.g., 280 potency and 140 to further targets per Blood Lily consumed, with each Lily consumed forming a Blood Lily)?

[Sunako]

A 115 potency attack consumer for Lily would sacrifice 185 potency per gcd relative to Glare (38% efficiency), versus Misery's 900 potency over 4 GCDs, relative to Glare's 1200 (75% efficiency, or ultimately 100 potency wasted per GCD thus spent on a Lily skill -- or 75 each if including Misery itself)...

If we want truly no potency penalty for Misery, you just... increase it to the potency of as many GCDs of Glare (1200). I don't think we quite need that, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to our cool/iconic/signature nuke being stronger (and thereby nearer to dps-neutral).

Ultimately, though, the make-or-break matter for Misery is simply whether we have something to cleave. It's a Glare-and-a-half more dps over a fight per enemy thereby cleaved (minus the opportunity cost of one Holy). At two targets, that's a balance aid. By three targets, it can be a significant feature. (Frankly, if we had the likes of an O3S add phase again, it could put WHM heads and shoulders above SCH, especially.)

115 potency lily would be 115 x 3 = 345 potency + 900 misery = 1245 potency

4x glares are 310 x 4 = 1240 potency

That's how it would be dps neutral, if you don't have to use lilies for healing.

[Sunako]

ive said it in other threads but ill repeat it here because i think its relevant and victoria isnt completely midguided this time.

The nerf to thin air was a gigantic hit to whm's mp economy.
Whm will be the healer with the worst mp economy in endwalker. Aside from lucid dreaming, their only mp recovery is assize (500mp/45s). As for mp conservation tools they only get a single spell under thin air, and i guess lilies count as free gcds.

This leaves whm getting on average 666 mp + 1 free spell every minute.

For comparison, minus lucid dreaming:
-sch gets 2000 mp per min
-ast gets 1000 mp/min from cards + average 2000 mp/min from astrodyne
-sge gets 1500 mp per min from addersgall + average 333 mp/min from rizomata

Its pretty clear whm is completely outclassed in the mp restoration department. You might be compelled to say "well whm could use thin air on an expensive heal or a rez every minute! its akin to having 2400 extra mp per min!". To which i have two retorts.

1. Ast gets on average 3000 mp per min. Ast could raise once every minute too and still end up with 600 mp restored. Assize is 666 mp per minute btw...

2. thin air does not restore mp, only conserves it. If you are casting continuously in an encounter (which you should), no matter what spell you use under thin air, it wont stop you from running out of mp any sooner.

Im going to make another comparison.
First, let\\'s assume that lucid dreaming will still restore 3500 mp on endwalker. Lets also assume that in endwalker, base piety restores the same amount of mp as in Shb. This latter assumption is based on the fact that as of now, regardless of character level, at 0 extra piety you always restore 200 mp per server tick.

Taking the aforementioned into account, imagine a healer with 0 spell speed and 0 piety on their gear, only doing their damage rotation and using every recovery ability in their kit, until they run out of MP.
- ast is MP positive. (never runs out of mp)
- sch would last 125 mins until out of mp
- sge would last ~15.5 mins until oom
- whm would last ~7.5 mins until oom

For reference, BiS sets from the balance that are meant to be only used for speedkills and are not suited for regular play, usually last around 7 mins til oom.

its also worth noting that, if you use every lily you get as soon as possible merely to save the mp from that gcd, whm lasts 20 mins till oom. Ironically, these are 4 more free gcds every 2 minutes, which is exactly what old thin air used to bring over its endwalker iteration.

What does this mean for whm?
WHM is going to need to invest heavily into piety compared to the other healers.* Which will decrease its damage contribution considerably.

WHM is going to need to use lilies more frequently as an mp management tool, or just drop gcds. Neither of those are good options because whm as a class with no buffs needs to have good personal damage.

*edit: As explained in a comment below, assuming piety will work mostly the same in endwalker as it does now, WHM would need to invest in at least 13 max level materias worth of piety just to match sage's base mp economy. That's nearly half of a gearset's materia slots spent on just doing what every other healer will be able do with 0.

Ok I just wanted to calculate this again.

One global take 2.5sec so you can use 24 Globals per minute
Every dps skill cost 400 mana = 9600 mana per minute

Server tick bring 200 mana every 3 sec = 4000 mana every minute
Lucid Dream bring 3500 mana every minute
Assize bring average 667 mana every minute
Thin air save 400 mana every minute
= regen 8567 mana every minute without lilies

= 9600 - 8567 mana = 1033 negative mana every minute
= 10000 / 1033 last 9.7min before running out of mana

If you use lilies once they are up you have 2.67 extra Globals per minute
400 mana x 2.67 = You save 1068 extra mana every minute

Mean you regenerate 8567 + 1068 = 9635 mana every minute while spending 9600 mana every minute. To me that make whm having infinite mana as long you are using lilies.

or did I forget something?

[Silver-Strider]

Ok I just wanted to calculate this again.

One global take 2.5sec so you can use 24 Globals per minute
Every dps skill cost 400 mana = 9600 mana per minute

Server tick bring 200 mana every 3 sec = 4000 mana every minute
Lucid Dream bring 3500 mana every minute
Assize bring average 667 mana every minute
Thin air save 400 mana every minute
= regen 8567 mana every minute without lilies

= 9600 - 8567 mana = 1033 negative mana every minute
= 10000 / 1033 last 9.7min before running out of mana

If you use lilies once they are up you have 2.67 extra Globals per minute
400 mana x 2.67 = You save 1068 extra mana every minute

Mean you regenerate 8567 + 1068 = 9635 mana every minute while spending 9600 mana every minute. To me that make whm having infinite mana as long you are using lilies.

or did I forget something?

PoM would cause you to go negative.

[Sunako]

PoM would cause you to go negative.

Hmm POM cause 8x extra cast? In that case it would be 9635 - 320 average mana = 9315

9600 - 9315 = 285 negative mana per minute

10 000 / 285 = WHM would last 35,1 minutes

without lilies 9600 - 8247 = 1353 negative mana per minute

10 000 / 1353 = WHM would last 7,4 Minutes


For Sage in comparison normal dps rotatio cost 10 000 mana per minute (10 100 if used Pneuma, but it is dps neutral for singletarget)

4000 - 3500 + 1833 = 9333

10 000 - 9333 = 667 negative mana per minute

10 / 667 = Sage last 15 minutes before oom
With Pneuma = sage last 13 minutes before oom

Ironically for WHM healing affect positively while for Sage healing affect negatively. Every time Sage have to use aoe shield to the party, they sacrifice a lot, because Eukrasion Prognosis cost 1100 mana = 700 extra mana loss.

I would say WHM is generally better place than Sage mana wise. On top of that with flexibility thin air, you can always raise with zero extra mana loss.

[QooEr]

Ok I just wanted to calculate this again.

One global take 2.5sec so you can use 24 Globals per minute
Every dps skill cost 400 mana = 9600 mana per minute

Server tick bring 200 mana every 3 sec = 4000 mana every minute
Lucid Dream bring 3500 mana every minute
Assize bring average 667 mana every minute
Thin air save 400 mana every minute
= regen 8567 mana every minute without lilies

= 9600 - 8567 mana = 1033 negative mana every minute
= 10000 / 1033 last 9.7min before running out of mana

PoM is another 300 negative mp spent per min
400*(15/2 - 15/2.5)*1/2
400 mp x the amount of extra gcds you get per PoM use x pom uses per minute
That ramps up negative mp per min to 1333
10000 / 1033 = 7.5 min before til oom

if you found an error in my math somewhere i would appreciate it

If you use lilies once they are up you have 2.67 extra Globals per minute
400 mana x 2.67 = You save 1068 extra mana every minute

indeed. lilies will also double as mp management

[Sunako]

PoM is another 300 negative mp spent per min
400*(15/2 - 15/2.5)*1/2
400 mp x the amount of extra gcds you get per PoM use x pom uses per minute
That ramps up negative mp per min to 1333
10000 / 1033 = 7.5 min before til oom

if you found an error in my math somewhere i would appreciate it


indeed. lilies will also double as mp management

Already did calculations, check my post below.

[QooEr]

Ironically for WHM healing affect positively while for Sage healing affect negatively. Every time Sage have to use aoe shield to the party, they sacrifice a lot, because Eukrasion Prognosis cost 1100 mana = 700 extra mana loss.

I would say WHM is generally better place than Sage mana wise. On top of that with flexibility thin air, you can always raise with zero extra mana loss.

i guess it depends on the amount of healing needed. Sage has many off global heals that they actually want to use to refresh MP. meanwhile whm lilies are a dps loss so usually whms try to avoid using them until there is downtime.

i do agree sage has it rough. i originally wrote my code to see how bad sage's mp economy would be, and to my surprise i ended up seeing whm lagging behind.
Also why does eukrasian dosis iii cost 600 mp the dev teams chocies puzzle me at times

Already did calculations, check my post below.

haha, guess i took too long to reply