White-mage is doomed - and why

[QooEr]

WHM doesnt even a lot to make up for the thin air nerf. A simple buff to assize to make it give 1000 mp instead of 500 would bring it more in line with the other healers

... except ast. astrodyne mp regen needs to be nerfed because 3k mp a minute is just busted

[Mortex]

WHM doesnt even a lot to make up for the thin air nerf. A simple buff to assize to make it give 1000 mp instead of 500 would bring it more in line with the other healers

... except ast. astrodyne mp regen needs to be nerfed because 3k mp a minute is just busted

I mean astro was always busted or meh. Astro since its debut was either bad/meh or so much better then whm. And thats all because as long as whm has his new player friendly healer stigma the job will never get any good tools or interactive and fun job mechanics. The healer job category must for whatever reason have a "new player friendly healer" and also dont forget they dont want to give them new downtime damage spells because it pressures you just by having them, that in my eyes is total bogus, yes of course a lot of us get a bit grumpy in this situations but im also pretty sure that almost no one is gonna write about it in "unfriendly" way, and then be silent about it. Vurebots dont care if they have more buttons or less buttons they dont press them either way.

[Sunako]

WHM doesnt even a lot to make up for the thin air nerf. A simple buff to assize to make it give 1000 mp instead of 500 would bring it more in line with the other healers

... except ast. astrodyne mp regen needs to be nerfed because 3k mp a minute is just busted

Another solution would be make lily have 115 potency attack. That would make it dps neutral after Misery.

[Shurrikhan]

Another solution would be make lily have 115 potency attack. That would make it dps neutral after Misery.

A 115 potency attack consumer for Lily would sacrifice 185 potency per gcd relative to Glare (38% efficiency), versus Misery's 900 potency over 4 GCDs, relative to Glare's 1200 (75% efficiency, or ultimately 100 potency wasted per GCD thus spent on a Lily skill -- or 75 each if including Misery itself)...

If we want truly no potency penalty for Misery, you just... increase it to the potency of as many GCDs of Glare (1200). I don't think we quite need that, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to our cool/iconic/signature nuke being stronger (and thereby nearer to dps-neutral).

Ultimately, though, the make-or-break matter for Misery is simply whether we have something to cleave. It's a Glare-and-a-half more dps over a fight per enemy thereby cleaved (minus the opportunity cost of one Holy). At two targets, that's a balance aid. By three targets, it can be a significant feature. (Frankly, if we had the likes of an O3S add phase again, it could put WHM heads and shoulders above SCH, especially.)

115 potency lily would be 115 x 3 = 345 potency + 900 misery = 1245 potency

Ah, sorry. I had forgotten about the 10-potency bump to Glare come Endwalker and mistakenly assumed that the direct DPS option would not ready the Blood Lily. (Most ideas regarding Lily offensive casts have been to offer direct damage as an alternative to banking towards Misery.)

I worry even then, though, that unless healing truly stays as pitiful in its requirements as now such still wouldn't be dps-neutral, as you could easily thereby end up having to spend two further GCDs, at least once per 90 seconds, on healing, due to the 2100 or 900n healing potency lost for the mere 345 offensive potency.

Moreover, it's an extra button that siphons away from your iconic nuke and healing-to-damage feedback loop. Is that really worth it -- especially as compared to just... buffing Misery, or even just turning Misery into a (perhaps faintly lower potency) oGCD that can be spent at variable counts of lilies readied (e.g., 280 potency and 140 to further targets per Blood Lily consumed, with each Lily consumed forming a Blood Lily)?

[Sunako]

A 115 potency attack consumer for Lily would sacrifice 185 potency per gcd relative to Glare (38% efficiency), versus Misery's 900 potency over 4 GCDs, relative to Glare's 1200 (75% efficiency, or ultimately 100 potency wasted per GCD thus spent on a Lily skill -- or 75 each if including Misery itself)...

If we want truly no potency penalty for Misery, you just... increase it to the potency of as many GCDs of Glare (1200). I don't think we quite need that, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to our cool/iconic/signature nuke being stronger (and thereby nearer to dps-neutral).

Ultimately, though, the make-or-break matter for Misery is simply whether we have something to cleave. It's a Glare-and-a-half more dps over a fight per enemy thereby cleaved (minus the opportunity cost of one Holy). At two targets, that's a balance aid. By three targets, it can be a significant feature. (Frankly, if we had the likes of an O3S add phase again, it could put WHM heads and shoulders above SCH, especially.)

115 potency lily would be 115 x 3 = 345 potency + 900 misery = 1245 potency

4x glares are 310 x 4 = 1240 potency

That's how it would be dps neutral, if you don't have to use lilies for healing.

[Sylvain]

So... I'm unsure on how you actually get those numbers.

All healers have the same base Regen and lucid dream, with that in mind we have
Whm : assize , lilies, thin air
AST : cards
Sch : Aetherflux
Sage : addersting

In term of mp gain per minute SCH get the most altough we have to consider that they loose the first minute unless they open with dissipation or heavily delay their AF.

AST gets 1000 + astrodyne which has the benefit of being usable at all levels of seals (so every 30s or 90s)

Sage has 15% per min without SCH's drawback

WHM has 5% but also 1 lily every 30 and thin air every 60s. Thin air mp/min can range from 400 to 1500 excluding rez. Assuming a heal requirement above dungeon and / or some movement. At least one lily per min will be used which saves 1000mp if used for heal and 400 if used for movement and blood lily generation only.

Assuming a "healing required" scenario with thin air and Lily used for healing.
We have:
Assize 5%
Thin air 10%
Lily x2 10% x2

So 35% of our max mp per minute.
If used on cure3 we can add another 5%.
So way ahead all other healers except maybe AST if astrodyne used on mp every 30s

Assuming lily replacing a glare for movement
Assize 5%
Thin air 4%
Lily x2 8%
So either 9% without lily 17% with lily.

There's clearly a big gap of mp economy I cannot deny it but then again, *assuming* healing requirement goes up, the mp economy should be closer to the first case (35%) rather than the second (9%, only healing with ogcd)
This does not consider any thin air + rez combo which would boost when mp economy further ahead.

By the time a fight can be healed only with ogcd the DPS should also be high enough to shorten the fight removing any need of extra piety compared to the other healers.

So ... Is whm truly doomed?
Well if all you're doing is glaring a dummy. Perhaps, yes, you might run oom around 8min. But that's assuming a fight without using a single lily either for healing or movement.
However if your actually engaged in healing then you will definitely be fine. Especially if rez are required.

If anything sage is the one in deep trouble as all I've seen is 5% / adder

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

snip

Don't forget Presence of Mind.

[Semirhage]

So... I'm unsure on how you actually get those numbers.

All healers have the same base Regen and lucid dream, with that in mind we have
Whm : assize , lilies, thin air

Because lilies and Thin Air don't *restore* MP. They make a GCD cost zero MP. That's not the same as adding 2400 MP to your bar if you cast Raise under it. Here's an idealized training dummy scenario. I'll be as kind to the dummy WHM as possible.

At base spell speed, you have a 2.5 second GCD. That's 24 GCDs per minute, if you stay on top of your casts. Since Presence of Mind adds an extra GCD and comes up every other minute, let's call that 24.5 GCDs. The cheapest spell you can cast during that GCD is Dia or Glare, both at 400 MP. If you cast healing spells or holy, that amount goes up. So let's stick with the ideal situation, where all of those GCDs cost 400 MP.

400 x 24.5 = 9800 MP down the drain per minute.
But that's just the expenditure. Now to deduct the recovery tools.

Base piety is 200 MP per tick, with 20 server ticks per minute - 4000
Lucid is 3500 MP, unless they changed it - 3500
Assize is 500 MP per use, usable 1.33 times per minute - 666
1634

With those in mind, we're still at a deficit of 1634 MP per minute. Now, you can nullify one of those casts with Thin Air. In that case, it doesn't matter whether it was Glare or swapped out with Raise, Medica 2, or Repose. The cost is zero, and you save 400 MP in that GCD. That gets you down to 1234. You also get two lilies per minute, and you can blow them for their DPS loss but also not spend 400 MP for each of them. That gets you down to 434 MP lost per minute.

To reiterate, that's the minimum MP you can expend in a minute.
Things that will mitigate that: More piety. Dropped casts.
Things that will exacerbate that: More spellspeed. Casting literally anything other than Glare without Thin Airing it.

WHM is running at a gross MP loss just by using their base kit. Any extra spellspeed or healing above three GCDs per minute will make it drain even more rapidly. The amount of piety you need to make up a few hundred MP per minute is (currently) in the thousands.

Once again, WHM is a horribly designed job that seems almost purposefully designed to punish you for playing well.

[MsTanya]

snip

Using your exact same numbers lets compare to other healers. (I don't play ast so I won't even try to make sense of that one)

Whm 4k+3500+666, but they get 3 free casts in minute one and then 4 in minute 2 with the two added lilies, misery and another TA charge. So their outgoing mp is a little wonky and yes this means not using lilies and sitting on TA will punish your mp economy heavily. Lets average it 3.5 free casts a minute at the cheapest cost so 1400 not spent. (negative 234 with pom)

Sch 4k+3500+2000. (negative 100mp)

Sge 4k+3500+1500+333 if you use rizomata on cd. For some reason their dot is 600 and pneuma also costs 600 on a 2m cd. (negative 767mp)

Heaven help them (both barrier healers) if they run out of stacks and actually need to cast a gcd heal since there isn't a way to mitigate that lost cost like thin air would, and raises will be even worse. Plus they're forced to dump mp on something since no gcd is ever free. I think you're vastly undervaluing casting higher cost abilities for free.

It seems like they all run on the negative in some way shape or form so I don't see this as a whm only problem, its a role problem. Guess its about time to invest in piety and avoid spellspeed like the plague.

[Sylvain]

Don't forget Presence of Mind.

Ah indeed I totally forgot about it!
Well again depending on which case we look at it ranges from "non issue" to "issue".

Glare-spam-dummy yeah it will make a dent. I can't look right now but I know they reduced the CD to 2min. They probably reduced the duration as well. But my guess is that it will roughly amount for the same amount of cast/min hasted.

However I don't think it will account for much if we're considering the lily+thinair on heal case. That should still be a solid mp economy. Let's just hope we'll actually get to use those lilies more than the first month of savage.