Will Beastmaster appear in any Endwalker content patches?

[Auryan]

Reaper wasn't an obstacle to a real job being made for Reaper... because it was made a real job, not a limited one.

No, the fact that BLU exists had no impact on Reaper. But if Reaper had likewise been made a limited job, it sure as hell would have an impact on people's enjoyment of Reaper.

Way to miss his entire point.

[Auryan]

It's a minority of the total spells, and as someone else already pointed out before, how many of those spells that you're referring to additionally have the exact same range and radius attributes, not just non-elemental effects? Very few of the spells are literally the exact same in terms of things besides animations.

This is par the usual with discourse when it comes to BLU. The same tired talking points get thrown around endlessly.

[Shurrikhan]

Way to miss his entire point.

Reaper, too, is itself a job concept (the dark/void-centric DPS version of DRK's broader thematic sphere) that people have, since 1.x's release of initial jobs (and with renewed vigor following Heavensward) said could never be added in the manner of a traditional job without losing what would make it special. Yet, there it is. And it seems plenty unique, among and beyond existing melee.

In that regard, BLU is no different. It is a concept which, with due thought (instead of mere toss-ins to guise a grind loop), absolutely could be permitted all real content without losing what makes it unique. BST, too, is no different. Full access does not demand loss of former mainstay components of identity, and identity does not demand a half-assed playflow. Former and unique systems of skill acquisition are not mutually exclusive with the ability to actually play current content to the extent that existing jobs can.

[Auryan]

Reaper, too, is itself a job concept (the dark/void-centric DPS version of DRK's broader thematic sphere) that people have, since 1.x's release of initial jobs (and with renewed vigor following Heavensward) said could never be added in the manner of a traditional job without losing what would make it special. Yet, there it is. And it seems plenty unique, among and beyond existing melee.

In that regard, BLU is no different. It is a concept which, with due thought (instead of mere toss-ins to guise a grind loop), absolutely could be permitted all real content without losing what makes it unique. BST, too, is no different. Full access does not demand loss of former mainstay components of identity, and identity does not demand a half-assed playflow. Former and unique systems of skill acquisition are not mutually exclusive with the ability to actually play current content to the extent that existing jobs can.

I disagree with ArchWizard in saying that Reaper is faithful to the older DRK iterations. It doesn't use its HP as a resource for damage (not practical in an MMO, I get it). Doesn't have access to status ailments (and no, that "DoT" doesn't count) and it's "possession" angle is pretty alien. While it's more in line with what I think of a DRK (aesthetic and combat wise) compared to XIV DRK, it still isn't there. 6.5/10 will still play though.

Skill acquisition and content availability (including balance concerns) are not necessarily mutually exclusive, true. However in this particular case of a job being designed outside of the typical mold, forces any divergent characteristics to be met with some obvious (and not so obvious) penalties. A job that doesn't learn the majority on abilities on level is out of the ordinary, a job that has any kind of customization is going to be scrutinized and any job with with a wide selection of quirky, gimmicky and powerful spells can have impact on other people's enjoyment of different kind of content.

So while it's feasible for BLU to be at max level with the standard jobs, it will have to have a lot of its most interesting aspects be significantly diminished and retooled. I don't think it's worth them investing BLU into a basic BLU and fun BLU (this forum's pipe dream) and certainly not worth gutting this version to throw it on the standard pile. Although I am open to them making changes between these extremes, if reasonable.

[Archwizard]

Reaper wasn't an obstacle to a real job being made for Reaper... because it was made a real job, not a limited one.

No, the fact that BLU exists had no impact on Reaper. But if Reaper had likewise been made a limited job, it sure as hell would have an impact on people's enjoyment of Reaper. Just as it has had on BLU itself.

As Auryan noted, my aim was not to draw direct correlation between BLU and RPR, only to highlight what you and I both know well and have discussed several times in the past: provided that there is a unique playstyle and role afforded, there is little reason two jobs of similar aesthetic or background cannot co-exist, a la RPR and DRK.
I've brought this up many times in discussions of GEO and TIM ("as long as they're not healers stepping on the toes of WHM/AST, then it's possible"), and the principle holds true with Limited Jobs as well. If people want a "traditional" Blue Mage job that isn't Limited in the content it can broach, there is no reason the devs should consider the existing Limited Job such an obstacle or even in the same sphere of development in the creation of such a candidate. If anything, the existing iteration of Blue Mage only serves as an obstacle to the design of future Limited Jobs (eg not repeating the same gimmick), not to future Disciples of Magic; the key obstacle to a future "traditional" Blue Mage stand-in -- if such a job were ever going to happen, mind -- is in designing a fitting, unique, and functional playstyle.

Which I repeat, nobody has yet suggested.

Even if it’s true that BLU has its own team, that team could be doing something else.

Again, could be said of literally any other aspect of the game with exactly equal weight and merit, by which I mean it's still a petty and non-constructive comment. I shouldn't be too shocked to find the high-end raiders in here complaining about how BLU won't enter their lane have similar sentiments about, say, the Ishgard Restoration -- or how they respond to casual players with similar thoughts about Ultimate raids. Just 'cuz it's not made for you doesn't mean nobody wants it or that the devs are wasting their time making it.

[aveyond-dreams]

Again, could be said of literally any other aspect of the game with exactly equal weight and merit, by which I mean it's still a petty and non-constructive comment. I shouldn't be too shocked to find the high-end raiders in here complaining about how BLU won't enter their lane have similar sentiments about, say, the Ishgard Restoration -- or how they respond to casual players with similar thoughts about Ultimate raids. Just 'cuz it's not made for you doesn't mean nobody wants it or that the devs are wasting their time making it.

Ishgard restoration helped me and many others get into crafting and gathering in record numbers and served as a source for some of the more coveted glamours and mounts this expansion. It is impossible to walk around any major city without running into someone who has not participated in or benefited in some way from the rewards of that content. By all accounts it was a success.

Ultimate and savage raids also provide huge amounts of rewards in the form of glamours, mounts, with varying time investments depending on what fight you're doing. The best thing about these raids is that you can go in as any job and get the things you like. A lot of people do these raids when they are current and once the new expansion drops we will be preoccupied with doing the latest tier of raids.

Then you have midcore content, like Bozja/relics, Extremes, and so on. You could also add deep dungeon into this mix if we had one this expansion, along with the time investment many of us make to level multiple jobs using a variety of methods, which we then proceed to use in new content like raids/msq/Bozja/etc.

So why then would I want a limited job that can *only* do old content I already cleared and gotten the rewards from already? Why should the aesthetic of a naturey beast hunter be co-opted by people who want to turn it into pokemon? Blue mage cannot even do new game plus. It might be good at fates but then they decided to lock out of Eureka of all places. The decisions made for this job are baffling at best and the last thing we need is to take away another classic job with an even more popular aesthetic missing in this game (that is not fulfilled by Bard with all its thematic confusion) and turn it into a pokemon minigame.

7.0 will almost surely have a new scouting job and a ranged/caster. I would much rather them focus on making a full fledged Tamer/Hunter/Ranger that uses hatchets or a crossbow with maybe 1 or 2 pets that work similarly to Bahamut and Phoenix and some single abilities that summon a pet as an animation to do an attack similar to Reaper's avatar. That is the kind of job even the WoL could take on in a trailer and build massive hype for a new expansion. Limited beastmaster though? That *dampens* hype and would probably elicit groans from the audience just like in the infamous 2019 fanfest when failing to read the room got a whole new definition.

It's clear to most of us looking in from the outside that limited jobs have a very limited future ahead of them, and in a game where there is a lot of content competing for our attention, the last thing we want to do is years old content we already beat countless times-especially during the content drought we suffered during the lull between 5.2 and 5.3. A job that is only relevant during moogle events (unless you already have the rewards or get the currency passively doing other things) isn't a job, it's worth less than a free to play gacha limited time summon. We already lost one fan-favorite job, we do not need to lose another. If they want to keep these mini-games as "extra" content-fine-but balance the actual jobs so we can use them in the latest content that we are literally paying for too.



*This* is not a meme job, it is a serious job with an aesthetic that many people enjoy and would gladly make the compromise of less pets than in Octopath in order for the ability to do content with other people. I can totally see female Hrothgar being the postergirl for this. You will never convince the vast majority of people that a standard fantasy trope-the party's "Hunter" is so quirky and special that it can't play with others in content that isn't over 2 years old, if not older.

[Archwizard]

It's clear to most of us looking in from the outside that limited jobs have a very limited future ahead of them, and in a game where there is a lot of content competing for our attention, the last thing we want to do is years old content we already beat countless times-especially during the content drought we suffered during the lull between 5.2 and 5.3.

During content droughts there's nothing for us to do but revisit old content. BLU actually generates some interest in revisiting, which is beneficial to new players and veterans alike -- and gives the devs a buffer so they don't have to rush to put out half-baked content just to beat a drought.

That's the lovely thing: LJ content is optional. It hurts nobody in its existence. If you think you have too much on your plate without it, you don't have to more on. And if you decide you have nothing to do because the game is in a drought, it must mean there isn't too much content "competing for your attention," is there.

7.0 will almost surely have a new scouting job and a ranged/caster. I would much rather them focus on making a full fledged Tamer/Hunter/Ranger that uses hatchets or a crossbow with maybe 1 or 2 pets that work similarly to Bahamut and Phoenix and some single abilities that summon a pet as an animation to do an attack similar to Reaper's avatar.

And if they think that's a plausible avenue to take and manage to follow through, I will certainly not begrudge them for not making a Limited Job. They want a new pet job? They think BST is the best fit? They think it will be different enough from SMN to be worth adding? Awesome, I'm happy for you, hell I'll try it myself.

I'm simply pointing out that Limited Jobs are an avenue for them to continue to represent such jobs in the circumstances that they did not believe they could do so in a full capacity that is unique from an existing job or balanced for current content. Which is why extremely lofty ideals of BST and PUP often come up in these discussions.

There seems to be this disconnect, that the argument for BST is "We need a new, obligatory Limited Job ergo let's sacrifice the concept of a Beastmaster to our new god of cruel and ironic comedy."
In reality the sentiment is "I'd love to see BST, but I feel its potential as a tamer of enemy monsters would be stifled as a full job adhering to current content balance, and that it's a missed opportunity to have it start at level 70+ with a full menagerie of pets over having you at least quest to tame them. So if they're still making a Limited Job... put BST on the list."

Now, if they flip that script instead and make some Pokemon-esque minigame a prerequisite to unlocking BST -- so that you feel you tamed and trained your pets and you have earned their respect to use them on the field of battle -- and it was a full job with a unique and functional pet-focused playstyle, that could satisfy both teams, wouldn't you agree?
Or do you even care, as long as it's not a Limited Job.

If they want to keep these mini-games as "extra" content-fine-but balance the actual jobs so we can use them in the latest content that we are literally paying for too.

And when did Limited Jobs ever provide an obstacle to that?

[jon041065]

Now, if they flip that script instead and make some Pokemon-esque minigame a prerequisite to unlocking BST -- so that you feel you tamed and trained your pets and you have earned their respect to use them on the field of battle -- and it was a full job with a unique and functional pet-focused playstyle, that could satisfy both teams, wouldn't you agree?
Or do you even care, as long as it's not a Limited Job.

I know that there are some on my side of this debate that are straight up against limited jobs being in the game period but this would be acceptable to me and many I've seen that are also hoping for a middle ground to be reached. Have completion of the masked carnivale up to a point be required to unlock the job version of blu and keep the side content that is blue mage in the game as is. The idea I had back when blu was updated to level 60 was to establish a legit blue mage guild and have new members that were formerly a tank, caster, and healer. Short little story lines for both that at the end award you a job stone for blu to function as that role. I don't know the story of 61-70 blu and if that makes this idea not possible.

[Archwizard]

If they want to keep these mini-games as "extra" content-fine-but balance the actual jobs so we can use them in the latest content that we are literally paying for too.

And when did Limited Jobs ever provide an obstacle to that?

Ah, having re-read this statement, I now assume "actual jobs" means the Limited Jobs themselves, not a term meant to distinguish non-Limited from Limited Jobs.

... So wait, continuing with BLU as the existing case study, you want the job whose main appeal is that a team of them can essentially spam Limit Break on-command to be able to enter World First races, just so people can say "I did it on my BLU" without it being seen as a crutch?
By means of removing all of the gimmicks, kit flexibility, and firepower (including the aforementioned LB spam) that actually makes them special, but without actually suggesting any sort of replacement playstyle for them? Hell, after already complaining about all of the gimmicks AND the filler spell options they have?

Tell me, what's the difference between bringing your imagined version of a "balanced BLU" and, say, a BLM to a prog group?
Or between a "balanced BLU" and a new caster, like Geomancer, Time Mage, or something entirely original to 14?

Genuinely curious, since you still haven't suggested how a job like "balanced BLU" would actually play -- how to replace its core playstyle after gutting everything from the current iteration and demanding essentially a new job in its place -- but somehow have the tautological impression that it already is fundamentally different by virtue of... what? The name alone?
So here's your chance to prove your point. If the people who were once pining for BLU to even be represented are now so thoroughly disgusted by how the Limited Job version turned out that they would prefer to have never seen it at all, then please, do show me any material on what would hypothetically have replaced it if not for Limited Jobs.

Anything.

[aveyond-dreams]

So here's your chance to prove your point. If the people who were once pining for BLU to even be represented are now so thoroughly disgusted by how the Limited Job version turned out that they would prefer to have never seen it at all, then please, do show me any material on what would hypothetically have replaced it if not for Limited Jobs.

Anything.

No meme spells. A set of spells with a rotation for aoe and single target. I don't care if the ability to tank or heal as blue is lost or maintained, those role spells can stay as flavor or something. The job is now able to level with and do current content with others after learning the core spells of its rotation and is no longer limited to ancient fights everyone has already done a hundred times.

The end.

Designing the intricacies of job abilities and potencies is not my job, it's the dev team's. I absolutely would not have wanted Blue Mage added to this game at all if it meant that it could *only* be a limited job. I would have preferred literally anything else. It's their job to get creative and fix this situation, not mine.