Endwalker GNB Discussion

[Benn]

Except it becomes less skill oriented and more bothersome when your co-tank needs to voke because you simply don't have the space or properly move the boss without losing a Continuation combo. This is already a thing in speedkills, and was an issue in some fights this expansion. E5 comes to mind.

A simple soluation Xeno has brought up on his stream is making Continuation have a higher range. While it doesn't help the weaving problem, you'd at least be able to position the boss without risking your combo.

First of all I want to say: I understand frustration of people who go for Ultimates and speedkills. I really do so I am sorry that it will make your gameplay worse.

But 99% of player base does not do speedkills, ultiamtes, hell even savage is mostly ignored. For me, a casual tank main - I like more OGCDs becasue that is the fun of GNB for me. And I really like idea of Continuation for Burst Strike as it was always for me that window where I was like "Why so slow now??". For me GNB is insane speed, speed and speed where my fingers jump all over keyboard and I love it.

So for me, a casual - that's just more fun to weave more on GNB. Hell, till this point I was like "aahh, I wish I had one or two more OGCDs here and there".

So yeah, for me it's more fun, and I play to have fun

[Ixon]

First of all I want to say: I understand frustration of people who go for Ultimates and speedkills. I really do so I am sorry that it will make your gameplay worse.

But 99% of player base does not do speedkills, ultiamtes, hell even savage is mostly ignored. For me, a casual tank main - I like more OGCDs becasue that is the fun of GNB for me. And I really like idea of Continuation for Burst Strike as it was always for me that window where I was like "Why so slow now??". For me GNB is insane speed, speed and speed where my fingers jump all over keyboard and I love it.

So for me, a casual - that's just more fun to weave more on GNB. Hell, till this point I was like "aahh, I wish I had one or two more OGCDs here and there".

So yeah, for me it's more fun, and I play to have fun

Most of us, myself included, also play for fun. I play GNB solely for no other reason other than it is the most enjoyable job for me. This isn't a change for the highest of elitists, this is for everyone, casual to world first hardcore. Here is the thing though, when you design a job for the highest end content, usually nothing changes on the lower end, it still preforms just fine and no one bats an eye. However, when you design a job for the casual content primarily in mind, it has a chance to negatively impact the higher tiered players. Not just speed runners or top parsers, but even for people just doing raids. I play to the best of my abilities wherever I am at, dungeons, 24-mans, FATEs, etc, and in all those scenarios for people like me, this has the potential to disrupt the current flow of gameplay we currently enjoy.

The majority of players will lose nothing if they modify how Hypervelocity interacts in a way more suitable for end game content, and a change would only stand to be a gain for all players overall minus those who play GNB like they are hitting a striking dummy.

[Khimer]

It's already been said before, best way to fix continuation is not removing part of gnb's identity entirely, but increasing the range on those ogcds to 5y. Also don't forget that bow shock AND now double down both have a radius of 5y if movement still is a problem for you.
Personally i've never experienced trouble moving the bosses out of all the tiers except for e5s when you had to position Ramuh in a split second right after 14 spears for chain lighting and even then sprint helped with that. Never lost a single gcd. If it's logs you care about, trust me, if you absolutely have to clip at any point in fight all other gnbs have the same problems as you, you're not at a disadvantage compared to them.
If you are out of weave windows and forgot to press a defensive cd before the burst window, you can just delay one of you non-continuation ogcds by 1 gcd, i don't ever recall losing a use by doing that. Yeah, you might drift that rough divide out of raid buffs, but to be honest losing 40 potency is not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.
I care about optimizing my performance on all the fights myself, but something like continuation i accept as a part of the job. Sure, continuation adds something to consider while playing, when other tanks don't face any of those challenges, but all those ogcd and continuation precisely is what makes gnb fun for everyone who play it for the job that it is. Adding hypervelocity was only a natural evolution to that. And who knows, maybe they'll design bosses in a way that you'll have to move them far distances only during your downtime phase as a gnb.

[Ixon]

And who knows, maybe they'll design bosses in a way that you'll have to move them far distances only during your downtime phase as a gnb.

This is the most copium thing I have read on this thread lol.

Anyways, a single GCD and oGCD with a whole 2 extra yalms every 60sec is not what I would call a functional solution to movement during burst windows. Sure, you can rotate stuff within the confines of NM(Minus anything Continuation related), but there is no guarantee that it will be a feasible solution. 14 Spears is a mechanic pretty much every melee/tank could lose uptime on, that's just doing a mechanic and isn't quite the same. Saying that "if you absolutely have to clip at any point in fight all other gnbs have the same problems as you" isn't a good thing. If the design of the GNB makes it so that it is the only tank with that specific issue, that isn't a feature to be thankful for, that's a design flaw. I'm not saying to "nerf GNB, GNB too hard", I'm just saying if that's a unique issue, adding a level of frustration besides being simply difficult, then why expand on it by adding onto it like what they are doing in Endwalker.

This is eerily going down the same path as HW to SB DRK:
"Hey, I like this Dark Arts thing, it's unique, it's difficult, but it's fun!" - HW DRK
"Holy hell this is annoying, boring, and my thumb Dark Arts button has fallen off..." - SB DRK

With the exception that Dark Arts still had more flexibility than Continuation. Idk why people think like minded individuals want Continuation completely removed, I LIKE continuation, I think it works wonderfully in the confines of Gnashing Fang that add a similar level of enjoyment and difficultly I enjoyed about HW DRK, but it doesn't mean I want it twice as much.

[Khimer]

This is the most copium thing I have read on this thread lol.

You're right, it is copium to think that bosses won't auto position themselves and you'll actually have do something as a tank in new fights coming to Endwalker, i don't know what i was thinking.

I LIKE continuation, I think it works wonderfully in the confines of Gnashing Fang that add a similar level of enjoyment and difficultly I enjoyed about HW DRK, but it doesn't mean I want it twice as much.

You lost me man, now i don't get it. Are you upset that gnb's apm will increase by like 3 actions? And i might've missed it but what's your suggestion for your problem with hypervelocity?

Another decent fix to alleviate excessive weaving would be if they removed potencies from gapclosers so you don't have to weave them in your bursts, this is the real copium to think that something like that would happen.

[ForteNightshade]

You can look up yourself, but both my clears in TEA were grey.

I already have. Which begs the question. Why are you talking about optimization when none of the concerns being discussed will apply to you? If your goal is only to clear, delaying oGCDs outside buffs won't matter nor will losing an oGCD even if it were Hypervelocity.

If it's "Moving the boss is going to be harder" then just figure out ways to move the boss where either you're not going to be using burst strike, or start to move ahead of time. If WHM can figure out movement during a boss fight, GNB can.
--
"If you only hit the tail end of rampart with a tank buster, you take more damage!"
...what? Did you read what you wrote?

Likewise, if you can only time Rampart to line up with an upcoming tank buster but won't have the weave space to add a second CD, you'll just take more damage than any other tank in the same position.

Did you? I specifically highlighted an example where you'd want multiple cooldowns. Currently, Burst Strike creates a much needed double weave slot for GNB to facilitate that. In EW, you won't be able to since you only have one weave slot. So you'll either drop a CD or move one of your oGCDs out of raid buffs.

As GNB is now is what we should be using as the control in comparison. GNB isn't dumbed down now because there's nothing else to compare it to. I'm not complaining about how it is now, I'm saying "complaining about Hypervelocity cannot lead to a gutting of GNB how DRK got gutted in 5.0 due to a perceived "wah it's too hard"."

In other words, don't ask for clunky design changes because the dev team might overreact and take the whole thing away? First, that's a terrible mindset; essentially saying the dev team can't fix a problem without swinging too far in the opposite direction. Which, to be fair, has been an issue. Second, and more important, your comparison is entirely flawed since Dark Arts never required you to use it immediately. Much in the same way I can delay a usage of Flood now, so long as I wasn't overcapping my MP, it didn't interfere. That isn't the case with Hypervelocity, which is adding unnecessary clunkiness instead of taking it away.

First of all I want to say: I understand frustration of people who go for Ultimates and speedkills. I really do so I am sorry that it will make your gameplay worse.

But 99% of player base does not do speedkills, ultiamtes, hell even savage is mostly ignored. For me, a casual tank main - I like more OGCDs becasue that is the fun of GNB for me. And I really like idea of Continuation for Burst Strike as it was always for me that window where I was like "Why so slow now??". For me GNB is insane speed, speed and speed where my fingers jump all over keyboard and I love it.

Hence why I wouldn't want to remove Hypervelocity but change it so we're both happy.

One option would be the aforementioned suggestion Xeno made to simply give Hypervelocity and the assorted Cartridge combo oGCDs increased range. While this wouldn't fix the weaving issue, it would allow GNB to move the boss without potentially clipping their GCD.

My preferred option is making it so these oGCDs won't break if you use another weapon skill. Even if that only applied to Hypervelocity, it'd simply put GNB back to where it is now in terms of weave space.

Regardless, both options don't impact the casual play you enjoy while also not impacting my preference to optimize.