Endwalker GNB Discussion

[Ixon]

First of all I want to say: I understand frustration of people who go for Ultimates and speedkills. I really do so I am sorry that it will make your gameplay worse.

But 99% of player base does not do speedkills, ultiamtes, hell even savage is mostly ignored. For me, a casual tank main - I like more OGCDs becasue that is the fun of GNB for me. And I really like idea of Continuation for Burst Strike as it was always for me that window where I was like "Why so slow now??". For me GNB is insane speed, speed and speed where my fingers jump all over keyboard and I love it.

So for me, a casual - that's just more fun to weave more on GNB. Hell, till this point I was like "aahh, I wish I had one or two more OGCDs here and there".

So yeah, for me it's more fun, and I play to have fun

Most of us, myself included, also play for fun. I play GNB solely for no other reason other than it is the most enjoyable job for me. This isn't a change for the highest of elitists, this is for everyone, casual to world first hardcore. Here is the thing though, when you design a job for the highest end content, usually nothing changes on the lower end, it still preforms just fine and no one bats an eye. However, when you design a job for the casual content primarily in mind, it has a chance to negatively impact the higher tiered players. Not just speed runners or top parsers, but even for people just doing raids. I play to the best of my abilities wherever I am at, dungeons, 24-mans, FATEs, etc, and in all those scenarios for people like me, this has the potential to disrupt the current flow of gameplay we currently enjoy.

The majority of players will lose nothing if they modify how Hypervelocity interacts in a way more suitable for end game content, and a change would only stand to be a gain for all players overall minus those who play GNB like they are hitting a striking dummy.

[ForteNightshade]

You can look up yourself, but both my clears in TEA were grey.

I already have. Which begs the question. Why are you talking about optimization when none of the concerns being discussed will apply to you? If your goal is only to clear, delaying oGCDs outside buffs won't matter nor will losing an oGCD even if it were Hypervelocity.

If it's "Moving the boss is going to be harder" then just figure out ways to move the boss where either you're not going to be using burst strike, or start to move ahead of time. If WHM can figure out movement during a boss fight, GNB can.
--
"If you only hit the tail end of rampart with a tank buster, you take more damage!"
...what? Did you read what you wrote?

Likewise, if you can only time Rampart to line up with an upcoming tank buster but won't have the weave space to add a second CD, you'll just take more damage than any other tank in the same position.

Did you? I specifically highlighted an example where you'd want multiple cooldowns. Currently, Burst Strike creates a much needed double weave slot for GNB to facilitate that. In EW, you won't be able to since you only have one weave slot. So you'll either drop a CD or move one of your oGCDs out of raid buffs.

As GNB is now is what we should be using as the control in comparison. GNB isn't dumbed down now because there's nothing else to compare it to. I'm not complaining about how it is now, I'm saying "complaining about Hypervelocity cannot lead to a gutting of GNB how DRK got gutted in 5.0 due to a perceived "wah it's too hard"."

In other words, don't ask for clunky design changes because the dev team might overreact and take the whole thing away? First, that's a terrible mindset; essentially saying the dev team can't fix a problem without swinging too far in the opposite direction. Which, to be fair, has been an issue. Second, and more important, your comparison is entirely flawed since Dark Arts never required you to use it immediately. Much in the same way I can delay a usage of Flood now, so long as I wasn't overcapping my MP, it didn't interfere. That isn't the case with Hypervelocity, which is adding unnecessary clunkiness instead of taking it away.

First of all I want to say: I understand frustration of people who go for Ultimates and speedkills. I really do so I am sorry that it will make your gameplay worse.

But 99% of player base does not do speedkills, ultiamtes, hell even savage is mostly ignored. For me, a casual tank main - I like more OGCDs becasue that is the fun of GNB for me. And I really like idea of Continuation for Burst Strike as it was always for me that window where I was like "Why so slow now??". For me GNB is insane speed, speed and speed where my fingers jump all over keyboard and I love it.

Hence why I wouldn't want to remove Hypervelocity but change it so we're both happy.

One option would be the aforementioned suggestion Xeno made to simply give Hypervelocity and the assorted Cartridge combo oGCDs increased range. While this wouldn't fix the weaving issue, it would allow GNB to move the boss without potentially clipping their GCD.

My preferred option is making it so these oGCDs won't break if you use another weapon skill. Even if that only applied to Hypervelocity, it'd simply put GNB back to where it is now in terms of weave space.

Regardless, both options don't impact the casual play you enjoy while also not impacting my preference to optimize.

[Absurdity]

While GnB's high cpm playstyle is literally the only thing that's keeping me on tank atm I can wholeheartedly agree that it did not need more continuation, especially not on THE ONE ABILITY that so far allowed you to freely weave 2 defensives without breaking your Gnashing combo.

Continuation was completely fine in ShB, I would even go so far as to say it is essential to gunbreaker's appeal. Sure boss positioning was a pain during Gnashing but that's what you had Burst Strike for. I'm honestly not sure if whoever designed that ever played GnB without losing potency left and right...or they designed the Endwalker changes entirely on a dummy without ever taking mitigation weaves into consideration.

This doesn't even go into how unintuitive the playstyle is now going to be if potencies stay the way they currently are.

Gnashing Fang + Jugular Rip is a combined potency of 540, Burst Strike + Hypervelocity is a combined potency of 600, this means that you will most likely want to use Gnashing Fang outside of No Mercy and all following combo GCDs inside No Mercy so you can fit one extra Burst Strike into the buff. This doesn't just go against the current flow of Gunbreaker but also means that you have another forced weave since you need to double weave Continuation + No Mercy after Gnashing Fang.


I honestly hope that they will revert this change because it doesn't add anything but frustration to the playstyle.

[Duskane]

I'm pretty excited for burst strike continuum but a easy fix would allow this one and only hypervelocity not break after another GCD

[Ixon]

The 3rd cartridge being spent on Burst Strike is just to use a cartridge if you have it, if that.
Granted this is just me feely-crafting here, but also a bit of bias. I enjoy the hectic pace and APM GNB offers. If anything I'd say that, after a bloodfest, if in the middle of No Mercy a weave must take place, then treating 2x Down as we do Burst Strike now alleviates that issue altogether.

High APM is not the crux of the issue, it's a side effect. The main issue is adding more forced oGCDs that restrict and limit the functionality of being a tank during certain unavoidable circumstances.
Bloodfest is 90sec, Double Down is 60sec. Bloodfest is not supposed to "guarantee" a Double Down as you should be saving three cartridges for your burst that would at minimum go to a Gnashing and a Double Down. If anything, Bloodfest is going to be used to get more Burst Strikes out.
Not to mention if the last GCD in your No Mercy window is a Burst Strike, unless you meld a significant amount of skill speed, your No Mercy will fall off before the following Hypervelocity. That has nothing to do with the player, that's just how the numbers work.
You can have a complex job without it feeling disfunctional. You can have a busy job without it being a hindrance.

[WhyAmIHere]

High APM is not the crux of the issue, it's a side effect. The main issue is adding more forced oGCDs that restrict and limit the functionality of being a tank during certain unavoidable circumstances.
Bloodfest is 90sec, Double Down is 60sec. Bloodfest is not supposed to "guarantee" a Double Down as you should be saving three cartridges for your burst that would at minimum go to a Gnashing and a Double Down. If anything, Bloodfest is going to be used to get more Burst Strikes out.
Not to mention if the last GCD in your No Mercy window is a Burst Strike, unless you meld a significant amount of skill speed, your No Mercy will fall off before the following Hypervelocity. That has nothing to do with the player, that's just how the numbers work.
You can have a complex job without it feeling disfunctional. You can have a busy job without it being a hindrance.

And I'd agree. Even extending No Mercy to 21s should suffice to make sure you get that Burst Strike->Continuation in whilst NM is active. Adding a second or two of duration to a thing's not outside of SE's wheelhouse, and saying "Hey SE, can you please add 1 second of duration to No Mercy? That way Hypervelocity will land within No Mercy's active duration. Please and thank you" is a thing I can get behind.

But I'd still counter the point of there being too many oGCDs. IDK, I was never too bothered by SB DRK and it's "DA spam" personally, and I didn't feel like it impacted my ability to tank. Did I have to learn how better to time out my cooldowns if I needed to use them in raids and I was going in to a burst moment, or just forego the damage and focus on doing the mechanics the fight required me to do? Sure. I can think of several instances where being a GNB is painful. E2S as I mentioned before it's painful for your 2nd No Mercy. E5S during the "add" phase(s). TEA. But those things can be worked around.

To me, it's not limiting to have one more skill be affected by Continuation. It's not gonna be a fun learning process to be sure, but it's not the end of the world. Being a tank as GNB is already troubling when it comes to using mitigations during heavy weave moments, but I see them more as challenges to solve. "If this mechanic'll happen and I'm about to go into NM, and it'll be unpleasant for me to try and maneuver around or mitigate damage, how can I plot out my skills such that I won't miss out on any GCDs?" That to me says, at it's core, GNB is not a simple to play tank, nor should it be in my opinion! It's technical and requires more understanding of fight timings to maximize it's potential in any given encounter. It's not so demanding if you're just an off tank smacking the boss, but as main tank? Hoo boy, trying to hit the tail end of your cooldowns and prepop them so you don't miss them whilst in NM is pretty fun to figure out.

I'll question how you think a skill that, at [level of upgraded trait to bloodfest]*, will generate 3 cartridges is somehow not going to guarantee you access to your 2-soil spender, outside of recast timing. Especially if 2x Down and No Mercy share a recast timer. But potencies aren't set in stone yet so til then and the people smarter than me in math can plot out "is it worth to always spend a soil on burst strike, or save it for gnashing / 2x down" I still don't see an issue with Hypervelocity, besides the 20s duration of No Mercy.

[Absurdity]

But I'd still counter the point of there being too many oGCDs. IDK, I was never too bothered by SB DRK and it's "DA spam" personally, and I didn't feel like it impacted my ability to tank. Did I have to learn how better to time out my cooldowns if I needed to use them in raids and I was going in to a burst moment, or just forego the damage and focus on doing the mechanics the fight required me to do? Sure. I can think of several instances where being a GNB is painful. E2S as I mentioned before it's painful for your 2nd No Mercy. E5S during the "add" phase(s). TEA. But those things can be worked around.

Except weaving DA was never a problem because you always had the option to delay it, using DA for either Syphon Strike, Soul Eater or Bloodspiller was dps neutral (until the point where the ability you used DA on didn't crit but the other ones did, but you had 0 influence on that). So you could always delay DA by 1-2 GCDs or worst case use it during your next Soul Eater combo, you had a lot of flexibility in which GCD you would use it on. This could potentially cost you one use of DA under raid buffs but it was 1. very rare and 2. only a loss of what, maybe 40 potency? Whereas losing Continuation is a loss of 260-300 potency.

Continuation doesn't allow for that flexibility, you either weave it after the Gnashing Fang or you lose it and unlike DA you now have to wait 30 seconds before you can use it again, not just until your next 1-2-3 combo. The only ability that allowed for some limited flexibility in case you needed to weave defensives was Burst Strike, because it didn't break your Gnashing combo and allowed for 2 weave slots. Adding Continuation to it removes that flexibility because now you have 1 of Burst Strikes' weave slots taken up by Continuation, leaving you with the exact same problem that Gnashing Fang has.

The problem isn't that GnB has too many oGCDs, it's that it has too many forced oGCDs that can only be used after a specific GCD and in a specific order. All this does it add more frustration to the job if the boss mechanics don't align well with your rotation, they could've literally made Hypervelocity a basic oGCD instead of a Continuation ability and it wouldn't be an issue because it leaves Burst Strike untouched.

I don't know about everyone else here with Gunbreaker and its soon to be difficulty with it over all GCD/oGCD conflict but I like that. If everything is built to be streamlined and work together flawlessly then its intensely boring and you just run it on autopilot. Having to make decisions between when you do or dont poop all those oGCDs out or having to hold one for a moment to give yourself a bit of space to drop some mitigation, heart, etc. is nice once in a while. Also, I am ok with having to re prioritize what goes into No Mercy since it at least changes it up even if it turns into another cycle of consistent repetition. Extending No Mercy will just wind everything back to effectively being Shadowbringers. I am sure they can find more elegant solutions as time goes on.

The main issue is that you have no choice to hold them. You either use the oGCDs or you weave defensives instead and gimp your damage because they're now unavailable and you just threw away free damage. The only tool that allowed you to hold them for a moment was Burst Strike, which will suffer from the exact same issue in Endwalker.

[Ixon]

snip

100% agree. To again reiterate, the main concern is not the total number of actions pressed. If they want GNB to be the highest APM tank that's fine, though there does come a point when it's an absurd amount for a tank. We won't know if Endwalker GNB will be that way till we get there. I enjoy GNBs current playstyle, that's why I main'd it in Shadowbringers. The main concern is the oGCDs you are forced to use before your next GCD otherwise you suffer a decent chunk of damage penalty purely because there is no flexibility with it.

Currently there only 3GCDs that force an oGCD that you have to use every 30sec. That's fine, a headache at certain times, but completely workable. In fact, one of the workarounds was to use a Burst Strike mid Gnashing Fang combo to double weave or move a boss, and they completely stripped that away. Double Down/Sonic Break only give us two chances during 1min bursts, but even then we are already double weaving during those bursts as is, and those aren't even an available option for the Gnashing Combo in between No Mercy bursts like Burst Strike is.

Potential fix: Keep Hypervelocity an oGCD Continuation after Burst Strike, but put it on a 30sec or 60sec cooldown with an increased potency of 600-1200 depending on the cooldown, and whatever would make sense for using it only once in a while instead of after every Burst Strike. We still get the cool move, it's still a continuation after Burst Strike, but reduces the total number of forced oGCDs to a more manageable number.

[Mezzoforte]

I don't know about everyone else here with Gunbreaker and its soon to be difficulty with it over all GCD/oGCD conflict but I like that. If everything is built to be streamlined and work together flawlessly then its intensely boring and you just run it on autopilot. Having to make decisions between when you do or dont poop all those oGCDs out or having to hold one for a moment to give yourself a bit of space to drop some mitigation, heart, etc. is nice once in a while. Also, I am ok with having to re prioritize what goes into No Mercy since it at least changes it up even if it turns into another cycle of consistent repetition. Extending No Mercy will just wind everything back to effectively being Shadowbringers. I am sure they can find more elegant solutions as time goes on.

[Absurdity]

If you really want to keep Hypervelocity as a Continuation ability then another simple solution would be to make it activate off of Double Down.
This keeps the flexibility of Burst Strike, is only a minor restriction to your weave slots since Double Down has a 60 second cooldown and makes it so that Burst Strike doesn't suddenly have more potency than Gnashing Fang.

It may need some potency adjustments since you'll be using it a lot less but those numbers aren't set in stone right now anyway.